Teaching gospel doctrine on The Fall this week—thoughts?

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sparky
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Teaching gospel doctrine on The Fall this week—thoughts?

Post by sparky » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:48 am

I'm still stuck as a gospel doctrine teacher, and my week has come around yet again. This week the lesson is on The Fall. I consider myself an agnostic atheist, so when I teach I try to make it into a humanist lesson as much as possible, just focusing on the principles in the lesson that are common to human existence. For this lesson, here are a few ideas:

-Discuss the ideas of innocence/naivety versus knowledge, experience, and wisdom. Everyone has moments in their lives where innocence is lost and they realize the world isn't what they thought it was

-Adam and Eve were given stewardship over the earth; this can be discussed as environmental sustainability/responsibility, the effects of pollution/climate change, etc.

-We're taught we won't be punished for Adam's/our parents sins, but we are not free from their influence. This again is a common human experience—how do we influence our children as parents?

-Moral/ethical dilemmas in life. Everyone experiences these—sometimes there is no "right" choice, we just have to choose which consequences we can live with

Does anyone else have thoughts they would add or suggestions for discussion points on this?

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wtfluff
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Re: Teaching gospel doctrine on The Fall this week—thoughts?

Post by wtfluff » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:53 am

sparky wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:48 am
Does anyone else have thoughts they would add or suggestions for discussion points on this?
[Cough, cough]. Are you absolutely sure you're not feeling ill? ;)

(I don't have the brainpower to spin these types of topics. [Sneeze!] )
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

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slavereeno
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Re: Teaching gospel doctrine on The Fall this week—thoughts?

Post by slavereeno » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:53 am

sparky wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:48 am
-We're taught we won't be punished for Adam's/our parents sins, but we are not free from their influence. This again is a common human experience—how do we influence our children as parents?
Wow, Gospel Doctrine. That makes my primary teaching job seem pretty tame. I just taught this lesson to my primary kids though. I turned the above topic in to one about prejudice. I asked to kids to tell me about a time when they were punished as a group from the actions of just a few. They had lots of examples and I turned that into a lesson on judging others because they are part of a group, ethnic, racial, religious etc.

I am not sure if that would work with adults, I could see it easily turning into a "The world is against us Mormons" pity party instead.

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LaMachina
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Re: Teaching gospel doctrine on The Fall this week—thoughts?

Post by LaMachina » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:31 am

Sounds like you already have some great ideas.

I love the book Good Omens which has the following quote (not Garden of Eden Adam, this is a different one):
And there never was an apple, in Adam's opinion, that wasn't worth the trouble you got into for eating it.
I'd love to explore the idea of transgression or disobedience being worth it. Mormonism is clearly all about obedience but they are tied to this amazing, dissonance inducing story of the first couple disobeying because it was worth it.

This could be really difficult to do in a SS setting. I've had this conversation in less formal settings and I've seen Mormons get really uncomfortable with it. Still if I was still teaching I'd love to approach it...but I'm a bit of a crap disturber.

What if Abraham was meant to think for himself and not attempt to murder his son? God did stop him after all...(there are jewish teachers who take this position)

What if Nephi was supposed to think for himself and not murder Laban? His decendants dwindled in unbelief anyways despite his "faithfulness".

Anyway, however you approach your lesson I hope it goes well!

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Corsair
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Re: Teaching gospel doctrine on The Fall this week—thoughts?

Post by Corsair » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:46 am

Would it at all be useful to discuss whether or not the Creation, Adam and Eve, the Garden of Eden, and the Fall are "real?" If it is historically, objectively, or literally real then there are some amusing implications. Here is an experiment that any faithful Mormon can perform. LDS canon has four accounts of the Creation:
  1. Genesis, chapter 1-2
  2. Abraham, chapter 4
  3. Moses, chapter 2-3
  4. Temple Endowment, Creation Drama
Go through each of these accounts and make a list of what happens on each of the seven days. Note well that they do not line up. Can we use this to understand that we are supposed to learn something from the doctrine of the Fall, but not that it is completely literal? I brought this up to my 11 year old Primary class one time and it actually held their interest.

Reuben
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Re: Teaching gospel doctrine on The Fall this week—thoughts?

Post by Reuben » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:47 am

sparky wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:48 am
-Moral/ethical dilemmas in life. Everyone experiences these—sometimes there is no "right" choice, we just have to choose which consequences we can live with
Trolley problems? That would be fun. Adam and Eve's dilemma isn't too challenging for most Mormons because there's a retrospectively right answer.

Bonus points for showing a clip from the episode of The Good Place where they illustrated trolley problems.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lDnO4nDA3kM
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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2bizE
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Re: Teaching gospel doctrine on The Fall this week—thoughts?

Post by 2bizE » Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:50 pm

I would stress, using conference talks; that Adam and Eve are only 6000 years old, then later in the lesson show evidences of humans living many thousands of years before Adam and Eve. (Maybe even show dna testing indicating people have Neanderthal dna) Ask how they can reconcile this to strengthen their testimonies.
~2bizE

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Brent
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Re: Teaching gospel doctrine on The Fall this week—thoughts?

Post by Brent » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:31 pm

Lilith.

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Mad Jax
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Re: Teaching gospel doctrine on The Fall this week—thoughts?

Post by Mad Jax » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:16 pm

I suggest starting with this as our "taste of the fruit of knowledge."

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Reuben
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Re: Teaching gospel doctrine on The Fall this week—thoughts?

Post by Reuben » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:53 am

Mad Jax is taking about chromosome 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_2_(human)
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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redjay
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Re: Teaching gospel doctrine on The Fall this week—thoughts?

Post by redjay » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:18 am

I used to tell myself the fall was a metaphor for an advanced species/society/people, wiping itself out through an abuse of technology e.g. nuclear or nanotech type disaster, with just a handful of the species surviving and starting all over again to see if they could make a better job of development, so just an archetype of stories that run throughout religion (including the BOM) and science fiction. Probably doesn't help your lesson, but that was my angle, that I held privately.
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sparky
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Re: Teaching gospel doctrine on The Fall this week—thoughts?

Post by sparky » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:25 am

Well, my lesson is over and I'm clear for another few weeks. It went fairly well, I guess. We mostly discussed the first and fourth points on my list above, about making choices with imperfect information and naivety versus experience and wisdom in life.

I did say in my introduction that I thought the story wasn't an actual event, just an allegory for what we all experience in life, and I talked about it purely in those terms throughout. Probably made a few people uncomfortable, but hopefully also allowed a few people to realize it's ok to just read the scriptures as you would any literary fiction: learn from its insights into human experience, and acknowledge that there's nonsense mixed in with it.

The allegory really is a pretty good metaphor for human experience. As we were discussing eating the forbidden fruit and staying in the comfort zone of the garden versus facing the unknown world, I couldn't help thinking about my journey from the comfort of the beliefs I was raised with to investigating the truth claims of the church and ending up in the dark, gloomy pit of atheism :twisted:

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alas
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Re: Teaching gospel doctrine on The Fall this week—thoughts?

Post by alas » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:50 pm

sparky wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:25 am
Well, my lesson is over and I'm clear for another few weeks. It went fairly well, I guess. We mostly discussed the first and fourth points on my list above, about making choices with imperfect information and naivety versus experience and wisdom in life.

I did say in my introduction that I thought the story wasn't an actual event, just an allegory for what we all experience in life, and I talked about it purely in those terms throughout. Probably made a few people uncomfortable, but hopefully also allowed a few people to realize it's ok to just read the scriptures as you would any literary fiction: learn from its insights into human experience, and acknowledge that there's nonsense mixed in with it.

The allegory really is a pretty good metaphor for human experience. As we were discussing eating the forbidden fruit and staying in the comfort zone of the garden versus facing the unknown world, I couldn't help thinking about my journey from the comfort of the beliefs I was raised with to investigating the truth claims of the church and ending up in the dark, gloomy pit of atheism :twisted:
I think this metaphor for existence or the human experience or just plane growing up and leaving the safety of our parent's home is why this myth rings so true to people. The ancient Hebrews already had one creation myth in their scriptures that we have today as Gen chapter 1. Then during their exile in Babalon, they learned the myth of Adam and Eve, and it rang true to them, so they just added it to their scripture without taking the first and older one out. So, then 500 years later, they tried to figure out why God created mankind twice. :? That was when the researchers I studied said that the story of Lilith was added as a lesson to women not to start thinking they were equal to men. In the first creation story Lilith was created at the same time as Adam. So, sh thought she was equal and refused to be under him for sex--- she wanted to be on top because that was the only way she enjoyed sex(most women climax better in the female on top position) but Adam objected and when God sided with Adam, Lilith flew off in a rage and refused to have sex with Adam at all. So, God created Eve as a replacement for Lilith and to make it obvious that the man was the boss. Lilith was angry, and vowed to Kill Eve's children. So, women put charms around the cradle to protect their babies from the Demon Lilith.

So, these people who claim polygamy can't be right because God only created one woman for Adam, well, they don't know the story of Lilith now do they?

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