Don't say no

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Jeffret
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Don't say no

Post by Jeffret » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:59 am

Utah mom upset after school tells 6th graders they can’t say no when asked to dance
WEST HAVEN, Utah -- When Natalie Richard’s sixth-grade daughter told her she couldn’t say “no” if a boy asked her to dance at Kanesville Elementary’s Valentine’s Day dance, she didn’t believe it at first.

“Oh no, no honey," Richard said of her reply. "You guys are misunderstanding again. That’s not how it is."

However, after speaking to her daughter’s teacher, she realized the statement was accurate.

“The teacher said she can’t. She has to say yes. She has to accept and I said, 'Excuse me,” Richard tells Fox 13.
It's gone from "Just say no" to "Don't say no".

Though in reality, the latter was always the case, at least in this area. It starts from a young age, teaching the boys and girls their role and how to behave differently and instills problematic and even dangerous patterns and expectations.

One thing that's not entirely clear from the reporting is whether the school perpetuates the idea that boys ask and girls must submit or whether both boys and girls ask and are expected to submit. Not that doing the latter eliminates the problem as there are so many other messages in society to establish the dominant and submissive role. If the asking is in theory equal, I suspect the submitting isn't.


It looks like the story has quickly gone national.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Mad Jax
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Re: Don't say no

Post by Mad Jax » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:12 am

This is new? I remember this from when I was a kid. No boy was permitted to refuse a request for couple skating, a dance, Valentine stuff, anything school related that involved boy/girl interaction. What surprises me is that I figured it would have just come to an end by now.
Free will is a golden thread flowing through the matrix of fixed events.

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alas
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Re: Don't say no

Post by alas » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:43 am

I understand what the school is trying to do in teaching the kids to be kind. But dancing involves physically touching each other and kids should be allowed to say "no". By 6th grade, some of the boys are already getting creepy and predatory with things like snapping the girl's bra straps. The girls should be taught to say no to anyone who gives her the creeps.

This teaching of "be nice" is what gets women raped, and it gets them into wife battering relationship. Almost all battered women and most acquaintance rape victims saw red flags and ignored them. Women learn to override their own danger signals, with thoughts like "don't be paranoid" and "be nice" and "don't make a scene." When I counseled rape victims and battered wives...well, battered husbands too. I had to teach them to listen to the warning signals. One rape victim met a guy in a bar, he came onto her, and she left the bar with him, even though she was feeling like he was coming on too strong and was a bit creeped out. Poor choice. Most often it was agreeing to date a guy that they had misgivings about. The very most common situation was "He was an RM, and kinda nice but I didn't like the way he kept touching me, but I agree to go out with him, cause in our young singles ward, the bishop told us we should never turn down a guy who asks us out." Battered women see small red flags at first, but when they ignore the small things, the abuser moves onto more controlling things. It is a gradual process of getting her to tolerate his domination as normal.

With this idea that "being nice" is more important than her creep warning alarm, women learn to disconnect the creep warning alarm. Well, it is like a fire alarm. If you disconnect it, it won't protect you.

So, in counseling, one thing I always worked on with both rape victims and battered women was to reactivate their creep alarm. There are red flags with men who mistreat women such as how they interact with and talk about others. If you are out with a guy and he mentions what a b**** his last girl friend was, excuse yourself to go to the restroom and call a taxi and ditch the guy. Don't make excusesfor him or believe that his ex deserves the way he is talking about her. don't think you are different than this person he is bad mouthing and fall for his charm. One thing I taught them was that charm itself is most often a red flag.

But women need to be taught the red flags, rather than taught to look for the superficial things like being an RM. The church spends years pushing temple marriage but teaches next to nothing about actually having a good marriage.

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moksha
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Re: Don't say no

Post by moksha » Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:33 pm

This "accept the invitation" idea may have been instituted to actually encourage kids to dance rather than sit. Or it might be a means to spare the feelings of those 11-year-olds that are refused.

Alas, would it help relieve some of the issues you raised about abused and battered women if the 6th-grade teachers played only fast dance songs?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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alas
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Re: Don't say no

Post by alas » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:05 pm

moksha wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:33 pm
This "accept the invitation" idea may have been instituted to actually encourage kids to dance rather than sit. Or it might be a means to spare the feelings of those 11-year-olds that are refused.

Alas, would it help relieve some of the issues you raised about abused and battered women if the 6th-grade teachers played only fast dance songs?
I thought about the idea of fast dances where they do not touch, and that would be an improvement. Or give the one being asked the option of responding with an alternative, such as, " I don't want to dance right now, but let's go get some punch and sit and talk for this next dance." This gives the one who was asked some control and is still friendly. It also allows the person who was asked a chance to get the know the asker better. Then if the one who was first asked decides they want to dance, they can ask. But give everybody some control, not just the boys or just the most outgoing. Every one needs to be allowed to control their life.

Actually, I think 6th graders should still be doing line dances, square dances, and other folk dances rather than pairing off into couples dances. Let them grow up more before facing the risk of asking someone to dance and get their little egos stronger. For 6th grade, they should just stick to group dancing where everyone dances in a line or circle, a square or Maypole. I just think it is too young and should not be trying to pretend to be grown ups and forming couples as if they are old enough to know what love is. Dating and couples come soon enough in middle school.

And if you are my age you will remember that even in middle school, nobody danced until after they did the bunny hop and got every one up dancing. Line dancing is still really best for 7th graders and 8th graders too. By 9th, kids start to form couples. Let's not push coupling up on the kids too soon.

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Jeffret
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Re: Don't say no

Post by Jeffret » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:33 pm

moksha wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:33 pm
This "accept the invitation" idea may have been instituted to actually encourage kids to dance rather than sit. Or it might be a means to spare the feelings of those 11-year-olds that are refused.
That's clear to everyone involved. The mom who was interviewed acknowledged that,
“I do see it from their perspective when it comes to that, but there are many other ways to teach children how to be accepting than with a social dance,” Richard counters.

Richard says forcing students not to say no teaches them the wrong lesson.

“Sends a bad message to girls that girls have to say 'yes'; sends a bad message to boys that girls can’t say 'no,'" Richard said.
moksha wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:33 pm
Alas, would it help relieve some of the issues you raised about abused and battered women if the 6th-grade teachers played only fast dance songs?
Not speaking for alas, but I would say that it would help, but doesn't go near far enough. Even for a fast dance, it's still a couples-based social situation, a sort of mini-date. The context is still about romantic interaction, or at least playing adult. It's hard to see it as anything other than establishing dating patterns and it's clearly demanding the wrong patterns. If the situation were more academic or professional then it might be a useful lesson, as long as it can be taught without discrimination. In a social dating situation, even if they're only playing at it at that age, it's the wrong message.

I think alas really has the correct idea, though. The school shouldn't be pushing 6th graders into romantic pairing. They should present line dances, group dances, square dances, or other folk dances.

At the high school robotics competitions we attend, the venue will sometimes play group dances while waiting for the next match. There will be a huge turnout and the floor as the boys, girls, the teachers, and mentors have a ball. It wouldn't really work as a couples dance in a number of ways. (Far less girls, for one.)
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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moksha
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Re: Don't say no

Post by moksha » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:36 pm

alas wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:05 pm
And if you are my age you will remember that even in middle school, nobody danced until after they did the bunny hop and got everyone up dancing.
I do remember the dances in my Junior High School (Middle Schools came sometime after that). They were held during the last class period in the gym. Everyone sat on the bleachers and no one danced. That held true for three years during my 7th, 8th, and 9th grade years. At least the Mutual dances were livelier and they demanded at least six inches of space between the dancers. Still, if male-female pairings are to be avoided those dances missed the mark.

I suppose if Utah were more like the cultures of the Middle East, there could be boy-boy and girl-girl group dancing. I for one like to hear music played on the bouzouki and oud.

Just caught myself humming the Zorba the Greek song. Opa!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DrsubBFg5M
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Not Buying It
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Re: Don't say no

Post by Not Buying It » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:48 am

We have done our children a disservice by perpetuating a cultural practice where some kids face embarrassing rejection and other kids face unwanted physical contact. Just get rid of it. Sure, dances are a grand American tradition, but it messes kids up in all kinds of ways. The shy, awkward, physically unattractive, and clumsy get to be reminded that’s what they are, and girls get to be touched by creepy guys. A lot of kids have really negative experiences with dances. Maybe it’s time to retire the practice.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Emower
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Re: Don't say no

Post by Emower » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:05 am

I was an awkward teenager once. Dances taught me some things like how to deal with rejection. I don't think it messed me up.

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Not Buying It
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Re: Don't say no

Post by Not Buying It » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:56 am

Emower wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:05 am
I was an awkward teenager once. Dances taught me some things like how to deal with rejection. I don't think it messed me up.
You were fortunate that you were able to use it as a learning experience. Not everyone is so fortunate.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Emower
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Re: Don't say no

Post by Emower » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:14 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:56 am
Emower wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:05 am
I was an awkward teenager once. Dances taught me some things like how to deal with rejection. I don't think it messed me up.
You were fortunate that you were able to use it as a learning experience. Not everyone is so fortunate.
The most logical conclusion would be to let people go with who they want and not force matches on anyone. But lets dont cancel dances because some people have a hard time with it. Someone is going to have a hard time with everything.

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Jeffret
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Re: Don't say no

Post by Jeffret » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:26 am

Emower wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:14 am
The most logical conclusion would be to let people go with who they want and not force matches on anyone. But lets dont cancel dances because some people have a hard time with it. Someone is going to have a hard time with everything.
Emower, I'm curious about your opinion on dances at the 6th grade level, as this incident involves. Do you think it is important that the school provides and manages pairing dances for the students at that age?
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Jeffret
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Re: Don't say no

Post by Jeffret » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:40 am

My observation is that 6th graders really aren't that interested in this sort of pairing dances. Sure, some of them are starting to develop more romantic interests, but I don't think they're typically all that interested in this sort of pairing. I suspect that if the school offered this dance as an optional after-school activity, they would get very little participation. I am very interested to hear what others observe or how schools do it in their area. Do elementary schools commonly host these sorts of dances?

Interestingly, the school is in conservative Utah, as Mormons don't usually allow their kids to attend dances until they are several years older. Somehow this elementary school holds dances, though, and considers the behavior at them important.

My impression is that in general kids these days aren't as interested in dances and dating dances as they used to be. At my high school growing up, there were a number of dances, which were always a couples-only situation. I enjoyed church dances, but overall attendance was pretty low. Dances in junior high school were terrible. Hardly anyone was really interested in dancing with a partner. My impression is that dances are not as popular these days. Maybe part of it not living in Utah anymore, as the Church is always living in the past. It appears that at high school dances outside Utah, lots of the attendees go as friends rather than couples. Sometimes it's a large group of friends where a few are paired up. Sometimes it's just a few friends going together. Sometimes the pairing exists but is pretty casual. Often the dances with the most participation are those that involve group engagement rather than solely pairing. The number of dances seems to be much less. When we were at BYU, my girlfriend (wife) and I attended a couple of school dances. I don't know if those continue at BYU, but I hear nothing of campus-wide dances at other colleges. I haven't seen anything about that where my kids have attended.

It seems like dances are getting cancelled not because people are pressuring them but because those who might participate are not as interested.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Emower
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Re: Don't say no

Post by Emower » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:46 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:26 am
Emower wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:14 am
The most logical conclusion would be to let people go with who they want and not force matches on anyone. But lets dont cancel dances because some people have a hard time with it. Someone is going to have a hard time with everything.
Emower, I'm curious about your opinion on dances at the 6th grade level, as this incident involves. Do you think it is important that the school provides and manages pairing dances for the students at that age?
Important, no. But is the importance of the social awkwardness enough to shut down dances that are already in place? Also a no.

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Jeffret
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Re: Don't say no

Post by Jeffret » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:06 pm

Emower wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:46 pm
Important, no. But is the importance of the social awkwardness enough to shut down dances that are already in place? Also a no.
Is this just the tradition argument?

Should that also be applied to other things? Bishops have long interviewed youth about their sexuality. Most people come through it without too much lasting harm. Many people attack Sam's efforts because they don't feel that bishop's interviews messed them up. Is the tradition argument important here? Or the argument that most people weren't significantly harmed?

Is it not reasonable to talk about why this particular dance needs to be held in the manner it is? Or if it can be improved?
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Emower
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Re: Don't say no

Post by Emower » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:11 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:06 pm
Emower wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:46 pm
Important, no. But is the importance of the social awkwardness enough to shut down dances that are already in place? Also a no.
Is this just the tradition argument?

Should that also be applied to other things? Bishops have long interviewed youth about their sexuality. Most people come through it without too much lasting harm. Many people attack Sam's efforts because they don't feel that bishop's interviews messed them up. Is the tradition argument important here? Or the argument that most people weren't significantly harmed?

Is it not reasonable to talk about why this particular dance needs to be held in the manner it is? Or if it can be improved?
Sure, no reason not to have that discussion. But we don't need to jump immediately to "shut it down now."

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Jeffret
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Re: Don't say no

Post by Jeffret » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:37 pm

Emower wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:11 pm
Sure, no reason not to have that discussion. But we don't need to jump immediately to "shut it down now."
Of anyone involved in this, who actually said anything like that?

At most, Not Buying It said, "Maybe it’s time to retire the practice." That's quite a bit different from "shut it down now". Even the parent who raised the concern in the original report wasn't asking for the dance to be shut down.

We've been discussing a specific requirement in the dance that perpetuates harmful social interactions and expectations. There are real dangers involved in these types of demands.

Some of us have been talking about some different dance structures that might be more productive for kids of this age.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Emower
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Re: Don't say no

Post by Emower » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:45 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:37 pm
Emower wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:11 pm
Sure, no reason not to have that discussion. But we don't need to jump immediately to "shut it down now."
Of anyone involved in this, who actually said anything like that?

At most, Not Buying It said, "Maybe it’s time to retire the practice." That's quite a bit different from "shut it down now". Even the parent who raised the concern in the original report wasn't asking for the dance to be shut down.

We've been discussing a specific requirement in the dance that perpetuates harmful social interactions and expectations. There are real dangers involved in these types of demands.

Some of us have been talking about some different dance structures that might be more productive for kids of this age.
Ok, let me amend my response. No reason to jump to "lets retire the practice."

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Jeffret
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Re: Don't say no

Post by Jeffret » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:18 pm

Emower wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:45 pm
Ok, let me amend my response. No reason to jump to "lets retire the practice."
Which practice are you referring to?

Teaching girls that they must acquiesce to whatever boys ask of them? I think we do need to retire that practice.

Romantic dances for 6th graders? The most anyone has said on that one is "maybe" or that there might be better ways, more productive, more appreciated by the kids, to teach the desired lessons. No one has actually said, "let's retire the practice."
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Emower
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Re: Don't say no

Post by Emower » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:23 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:18 pm
Emower wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:45 pm
Ok, let me amend my response. No reason to jump to "lets retire the practice."
No one has actually said, "let's retire the practice."
"A lot of kids have really negative experiences with dances. Maybe it’s time to retire the practice."

As written above.

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