NOM

I once signed up for a time-share. Now I have no problem with those (I canceled it cuz it didn't get used enough). But, while using one of the TS gifts, I got to be in Vegas. And, I had to go into what became a pressure-selling room where additional "deals" were given me. I listened, didn't want what they had and told them no. I then basically was attacked emotionally and yelled at, being told I was a bad parent and provider since who wouldn't want what they were trying to sell me. I was SHOCKED by the response since I did honestly listen and consider what was being sold. I abruptly left that place, and want nothing more to do with that company or anything like that on the market. It was a good learning experience--that is all I can say about it. And I did learn something from that tactic....

One of the things I remember about that moment was the pressure to accept things RIGHT NOW! There is no time granted to think about it, or anything. I've sat in other selling situations where the same process ensues. There is a total and complete lack of "informed consent" with enough time being granted to actually make a considered choice.

When I heard about the meeting with Hans Madsen in Sweden, the same tactic was used BY THE CHURCH!

Hunh?

In hind site, the biggest example of a total abuse of the principle of informed consent is the temple. NO ONE told me anything about the temple. You were not supposed to talk about it. Then, before the endowment, the speaker said you are in deep sh!t if you make the covenants and don't follow through, and if anyone doesn't want to go through with it, they had better leave now.

Go through with WHAT? Since no one talked about it...GO THROUGH WITH WHAT!?

There was all this social pressure about the whole thing, I knew nothing about it, was being asked if I wanted to go through with it or not and had no idea what IT was....and after a few moments, I was pantomiming certain actions that where ghastly.

HUNH?

In hind site alone, this cultural fact of no communicating this secret (sacred) ordinance, have a joke statement about being warned to stop now if you are unwilling to go through with it (whatever the h3ll 'IT' was), and being denied informed consent, is enough to keep me out of the LDS faith forever.

The church teaches in so many words that you can't force someone to heaven. But, you sure can control and lie to them to seize power....all in the name of Christ.

Any opinions on why the church intentionally denies informed consent with regards to the temple and how the information is controlled?

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:31 pm

Any opinions on why the church intentionally denies informed consent with regards to the temple and how the information is controlled?

I think it's fear and momentum.

Momentum: The Q15 would have to first consider the idea that something the church does is wrong. It's hard for them to think that thought. It's also hard for them to understand everyone who is likely to speak that thought.

Fear: The Q15 are afraid that if members were honestly informed, they wouldn't commit. This fear is absolutely justified. Can you imagine giving investigators a list of every covenant they'll be expected to make, the conditions required to make them, and the social pressure they'll be under to make them? The number of convert baptisms would plummet even harder.

There's obviously something wrong with the system surrounding temple covenants. Because the Q15 can't think that thought, they think that people just have to be adequately prepared, and therefore give paternalistic "milk before meat" justifications of secrecy.

I have preferred the real estate legal term "full disclosure".

And yes, the reasons for less than honest men not providing full disclosure in a contract (or covenant) are two-fold.

1. Fear that the mark will detect the con and escape.
2. The traditions of their fathers.

As Reuben said "momentum". Church leadership suffers from the very malady described in the BofM. They cannot betray the traditions of their fathers, whether right or wrong, true or false.

The good news is it’s all made up anyway so whatever you felt pressured into matters not.

I am also troubled by the lack of informed consent that is part of the temple process. The fact that you make the final commitment to "The Church" and not God, has bothered me since I first heard it. It's kind of like a car salesman saying, "You can back out of this", when you walk into the showroom, but waiting until after you sign the contract to tell you how much the car costs.

1smartdodog wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:33 pm

The good news is it’s all made up anyway so whatever you felt pressured into matters not.

Made up yes, but unfortunately they’re happy to take real dollars from your pocket to sell you the fantasy.

We were taught to invite an investigator to be baptized during the first discussion if the *spirit* dictated.

Heavy sales pressure indeed.

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:31 pm

I listened, didn't want what they had and told them no. I then basically was attacked emotionally and yelled at, being told I was a bad parent and provider since who wouldn't want what they were trying to sell me.

So what you're saying is that you attended first Sunday Elders Quorum?

w2mz wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:33 pm

1smartdodog wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:33 pm

The good news is it’s all made up anyway so whatever you felt pressured into matters not.

Made up yes, but unfortunately they’re happy to take real dollars from your pocket to sell you the fantasy.

We were taught to invite an investigator to be baptized during the first discussion if the *spirit* dictated.

Heavy sales pressure indeed.

But oh what a relief when you realize it is nonsense.

Also at baptism.

High pressure to get baptized after learning very little, attend church maybe twice. No idea whatsoever all that comes with it.

But can you see how that "sales pitch" would unfold?

"ok, JHO, there will be covenants you will make in the temple"
"Great. I don't know what that means because I just joined but cool"
"oh, and, per the contract, you are going to agree to be disemboweled or have your throat slashed if you talk about it"
"um, yea, hey can I sleep on it and get back to you?"

deacon blues wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:37 pm

I am also troubled by the lack of informed consent that is part of the temple process. The fact that you make the final commitment to "The Church" and not God, has bothered me since I first heard it. It's kind of like a car salesman saying, "You can back out of this", when you walk into the showroom, but waiting until after you sign the contract to tell you how much the car costs.

Yeah, I never said yes to that one because I had not recovered from the shock. I am standing there thinking WTH? And meanwhile the ceremony moves on. After that, I always made a point in my mind to say, "only IF it really is the church of Jesus Christ and not just named that, which I very much doubt, because if it was, we would be making the promise to God, not the church.

I don't remember the marriage ceremony in the temple anymore. Its been toooooooo long.

But I think someone told me there is no commitment to love each other. its just giving and receiving in holy matrimony and all that.

Anyone know about that part? Getting married, but love is not part of it? Correct me if I'm wrong please.

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:26 pm

I don't remember the marriage ceremony in the temple anymore. Its been toooooooo long.

But I think someone told me there is no commitment to love each other. its just giving and receiving in holy matrimony and all that.

Anyone know about that part? Getting married, but love is not part of it? Correct me if I'm wrong please.

Check out ldsendowment.org.

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:26 pm

I don't remember the marriage ceremony in the temple anymore. Its been toooooooo long.

But I think someone told me there is no commitment to love each other. its just giving and receiving in holy matrimony and all that.

Anyone know about that part? Getting married, but love is not part of it? Correct me if I'm wrong please.

The word "Love" does not show up in any ordinance in the temple. Baptism, confirmation, initiatory, endowment, and sealing do not include the word "Love". It's not there. The True Order of Prayer might include "Love" in the prayer, but it's far from required. Your sealer will probably ramble on about it, but it's not mentioned or particularly implied in the actual ordinance.

Corsair wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:28 pm

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:26 pm

I don't remember the marriage ceremony in the temple anymore. Its been toooooooo long.

But I think someone told me there is no commitment to love each other. its just giving and receiving in holy matrimony and all that.

Anyone know about that part? Getting married, but love is not part of it? Correct me if I'm wrong please.

The word "Love" does not show up in any ordinance in the temple. Baptism, confirmation, initiatory, endowment, and sealing do not include the word "Love". It's not there. The True Order of Prayer might include "Love" in the prayer, but it's far from required. Your sealer will probably ramble on about it, but it's not mentioned or particularly implied in the actual ordinance.

Well, there you have it. THAT is insane. LDS marriage does not involve love. In fact, the only way to have "love" in it is for an apologetic approach to say "Its implied."

WTF!

deacon blues wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:37 pm

I am also troubled by the lack of informed consent that is part of the temple process. The fact that you make the final commitment to "The Church" and not God, has bothered me since I first heard it. It's kind of like a car salesman saying, "You can back out of this", when you walk into the showroom, but waiting until after you sign the contract to tell you how much the car costs.

Or even to show you what the car really looks like.