Temple Work - A Losing Proposition

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Hagoth
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Temple Work - A Losing Proposition

Post by Hagoth » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:52 am

1- The death rate for the human race is about 56 million people per year.

2- The church stopped publishing statistics for temple work after 1988. Based on those numbers it has been estimated that about 10-12 million endowments are being done each year.

3- That's a deficit of 41-43 million per year.

4- We have a backlog of about 100 billion people waiting in the spirit world.

5- The population of the world is growing rapidly.

6- The membership of the church is stagnant and probably about to go negative.

Conclusion: things aren't looking too rosy for the redemption of our dead.
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No Tof
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Re: Temple Work - A Losing Proposition

Post by No Tof » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:08 am

Good point Hagoth.

Even with so many Mctemples dotting the landscape we, oops, actually they will never catch up. Makes you wonder how many on the other side are really that interested in seeing this come to pass. If they were, don't you think there would be a serious praying campaign going on? With that many souls petitioning the Lord, you'd think it would have an influence.

Or perhaps it's all Sloth's influence.
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Red Ryder
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Re: Temple Work - A Losing Proposition

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:25 am

It's an easy fix.

Incremental Baptism by proxy.

Brother Hagoth who stands in proxy for and behalf of these 12 million people who are dead;

I baptize you in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy ghost, amen.

Then they dunk you repeatedly 12 times in a row.

For those who think my idea is not doctrinally sound; It's the same concept as the prayer roll. One prayer, multiple recipients.
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Corsair
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Re: Temple Work - A Losing Proposition

Post by Corsair » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:35 am

Let me offer a counterpoint that still shows temple work to be kind of useless today.

Suppose that Christ returns to reign upon the earth for the Millennium. Due to excessive coffee drinking and porn, only a measly 1,000,000 faithful Mormons are left on the paradisacal Earth to complete the temple work. In addition, all of the previously performed ordinances have to be redone because too many NOMs with current temple recommends messed up the ordinances before the Millennium. There are 100 Billion ordinances to perform. Sounds daunting, doesn't it?

It's not daunting at all. There are a thousand years in the Millennium so each year we have to do:

100,000,000,000 ordinances / 1000 years = 100 Million ordinances per year

But there are one million temple worthy individuals stil on the planet! Each year each of those faithful souls will need to perform:

100 million ordinances per year / 1 million people = 100 ordinances per year per person

But there are 52 weeks in the year. If each person does a wimpy 2 temple sessions per week and has a two week vacation the whole group of unbaptized, unendowed heathens will be easily rectified by the end of the Millennium. Yes, that is baptism, initiatory, ordination, endowment, and sealings which might take you all morning for one name. But you only need to do two per week and I know retired people who already do way more than that.

Surely there will be more than only one million faithful members on earth in the Millennium. With an all-knowing god giving us all the names and dates needed for proxy ordinances, this temple work in the 1000 years of Christ's reign on Earth should be a snap. So, why would I spend a free evening doing it now?

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Temple Work - A Losing Proposition

Post by RubinHighlander » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:14 pm

Corsair wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:35 am
100 million ordinances per year / 1 million people = 100 ordinances per year per person
Damn! I was just going to say "Because - Millennium!" Then Corsair opened up a can of calculation on it and got it all figured out.

Interesting how the Millennium is the convenient catch all for all things wrong with trying to work out The Work, especially when it comes to the needed conversions in the now and past and all the lost names we can't get to in genealogy.

Now lets throw this theoretical ridiculous wrench into the COB temple work meaningless engine: Science will continue to hammer down the facts, finding cultures of humans that existed 10's of thousands of years ago, mapping out the human family tree back to our Neanderthal cousins. Current and later generations of TBMs continue to give up their 7,000 year old Earth/No Evolution BS and exchange it for some mental gymnastics to make the facts work into their Lord's work. Where do you draw the line in the human evolutionary family in terms of who should have their temple work done? I mean, what if Jesus and the genealogy angels show up with a dozen billion more pre-Adam names? If you are going to baptize Dr. Leaky, you may as well do Lucy too!
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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: Temple Work - A Losing Proposition

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:15 pm

Let me flip the coin on this one. While we have many billions of names to get through before and during the millenium which seems impossible, I would suggest we have the opposite problem occurring based on having a limited supply of records providing those names (excluding yearly deaths). In doing genealogy work one quickly finds out there are few record sources prior to the 1700s that are reliable. Compound this with other cultures who kept no records whatsoever and we are bound to dry up our sources for old missionary couples to extract and scan. We will reach peak genealogy records at some point and then all the damn indexing can stop. Unless heavenly beings come down with names on scrolls, eventually kids will be limited to their own families for names to baptize for the dead.

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Re: Temple Work - A Losing Proposition

Post by Corsair » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:14 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:15 pm
Unless heavenly beings come down with names on scrolls, eventually kids will be limited to their own families for names to baptize for the dead.
I don't see any way to spin this. Mormons assume that the accurate records of an omniscient god will provide all the names needed. Now consider all of the people throughout history that died with no children. Add in all the people that had children but have no living descendents today due to war, disease, and other natural conditions. Among all of these poor souls it's obvious that many of these were illiterate peasants with no records of their lives that were ever recorded anywhere. We could not identify a single bit of their remains today. Only an omniscient and omnibenevolent god can redeem the overwhelming mass of humanity.

The faithful, apologetic answer to the reason for ongoing temple work is that it is important to have the living focused on things of eternity. A less charitable answer is that it keeps Mormons focused on this one hierarchical church instead of being followers of Jesus the Christ.

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Temple Work - A Losing Proposition

Post by RubinHighlander » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:41 pm

Corsair wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:14 pm
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:15 pm
Unless heavenly beings come down with names on scrolls, eventually kids will be limited to their own families for names to baptize for the dead.
The faithful, apologetic answer to the reason for ongoing temple work is that it is important to have the living focused on things of eternity. A less charitable answer is that it keeps Mormons focused on this one hierarchical church instead of being followers of Jesus the Christ.
The other problem with "Because Millennium" is that it will never get here. Every generation since Christ has said it will happen in their generation and it never happens and will never happen. How long will each generation of TBMs keep holding out hope for an event that will never happen? The COB hopes to get themselves out of the last days narrative corner; BKP said there will be at least another 4-5 generations before it happens, or it's just never mentioned in GC anymore. They may still hint at it because the media uses this tactic, but I think the COB is trying to buy time and phase that dogma out. It's the same theme as watering down miracles, diminishing priesthood power and allowing Pepsi at BYU...what's left? Can funny underwear and temples really be enough? They are running out of things to keep TBMs in suspense and fear and the things that make members feel super special.
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Dravin
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Re: Temple Work - A Losing Proposition

Post by Dravin » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:44 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:52 am
1- The death rate for the human race is about 56 million people per year.

2- The church stopped publishing statistics for temple work after 1988. Based on those numbers it has been estimated that about 10-12 million endowments are being done each year.

3- That's a deficit of 41-43 million per year.

4- We have a backlog of about 100 billion people waiting in the spirit world.

5- The population of the world is growing rapidly.

6- The membership of the church is stagnant and probably about to go negative.

Conclusion: things aren't looking too rosy for the redemption of our dead.
You also forgot:

7. A certain amount of temple work is duplicated.
Hindsight is all well and good... until you trip.

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Corsair
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Re: Temple Work - A Losing Proposition

Post by Corsair » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:06 pm

I don't wish to sound cynical, but there is one important aspect of temple work that we have humorously overlooked. You can't do it "wrong". There are no repurcussions to repeating ordinances, doing them wrong, using the wrong name, having the wrong birth or death dates. or performing ordinances for fictional people. It's not like there is overt "harm" or real world problems from any of this.

Sure, the church got in trouble for baptizing holocaust victims and it is insulting to many people. 99% of all people consider it a complete waste of time and there are opportunity costs for what else they might have done with the expense of temples.

Do we think that God is really concerned about LDS temple work? Atheists will chuckle and say "No". Evangelicals might say that God is not a fan. But most people would consider it largely irrelevant.

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Re: Temple Work - A Losing Proposition

Post by wtfluff » Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:50 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:15 pm
Compound this with other cultures who kept no records whatsoever and we are bound to dry up our sources for old missionary couples to extract and scan. We will reach peak genealogy records at some point and then all the damn indexing can stop. Unless heavenly beings come down with names on scrolls, eventually kids will be limited to their own families for names to baptize for the dead.
That's when this happens:
Dravin wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:44 pm
7. A certain amount of temple work is duplicated.
There's lots of anecdotal "evidence" floating around on the DAMU that says that the church is simple using the same list of names over, and over, and over.

Of course we all know that temple work has nothing to do with unique names, or saving dead people: It's simply a hamster wheel to keep the believers paying, praying and obeying. Paying is absolutely the most important thing in that trio.
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deacon blues
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Re: Temple Work - A Losing Proposition

Post by deacon blues » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:12 am

Temple work IS a hamster wheel, but after people reach a certain age, it does give them some purpose. I don't think God needs anything like temple work, but religions through the ages, from Egypt to Greece to India, have found it useful.
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Hagoth
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Re: Temple Work - A Losing Proposition

Post by Hagoth » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:08 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:25 am
It's an easy fix.

Incremental Baptism by proxy.

Brother Hagoth who stands in proxy for and behalf of these 12 million people who are dead;

I baptize you in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy ghost, amen.

Then they dunk you repeatedly 12 times in a row.

For those who think my idea is not doctrinally sound; It's the same concept as the prayer roll. One prayer, multiple recipients.
That is the exact discussion I had with Mrs. Hagoth when I was thinking about this.

The other problem, of course, is what about all of the prehistoric people, and how far would you go back. Is exaltation an option for Neaderthals? How about homo Erectus?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Hagoth
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Re: Temple Work - A Losing Proposition

Post by Hagoth » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:15 pm

Ultimately, the only real answer for all of this is the same one the Nauvoo polygamy essay uses to explain Joseph Smith's behavior with women: we shouldn't worry about it because God will sort it all out in the end anyway. Of course, the appropriate response to that is, if God is just going to fix it for everyone anyway, why jump through the hoops at all?

I agree with Deacon Blues that it's a nice place for older people to feel useful, since they have already sacrificed everything else to the church and probably haven't developed any outside interests. I suggest that the first question on the recommend interview should be "Are you older than 70?" The second should be, "Are you desperately bored with life?" If the answer to either question is no you are disqualified.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Corsair
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Re: Temple Work - A Losing Proposition

Post by Corsair » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:24 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:15 pm
I agree with Deacon Blues that it's a nice place for older people to feel useful, since they have already sacrificed everything else to the church and probably haven't developed any outside interests. I suggest that the first question on the recommend interview should be "Are you older than 70?" The second should be, "Are you desperately bored with life?" If the answer to either question is no you are disqualified.
This paradox drives me crazy. My dear father works as a temple recorder. It has been an excellent activity since my mother passed. He has something to do for a couple of days each week where he has friends, a responsibility, and a sense of being a positive contribution to his community and church. I would not want to take that away from him, especially because I have nothing to offer as a replacement.

His whole life was in service to church, community, and family. I am endlessly glad that he enjoys his temple service and his life of contemplation. But I am making my own plans for doing anything other than attend the temple after I retire. I am glad that he and my mother never did a senior mission. Temple work was the peaceful and logical culmination of her life and their marriage. My father is financially stable as a result and temple work is not an expense beyond the tithing he pays.

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Re: Temple Work - A Losing Proposition

Post by oliver_denom » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:11 am

Does the baptism have to happen before resurrection?

If not, then you could just resurrect everyone and the dead can help baptize the dead.

Or, if it DOES have to happen before resurrection because magic, then you could get everyone from the first resurrection to pitch in. Since they have perfect and immortal bodies, they don't have to sleep. Those wasted 8 hours dreaming can be converted into sweet, sweet, temple labor.
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Re: Temple Work - A Losing Proposition

Post by Kishkumen » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:51 am

Corsair wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:35 am


If each person does a wimpy 2 temple sessions per week and has a two week vacation... Yes, that is baptism, initiatory, ordination, endowment, and sealings which might take you all morning for one name. But you only need to do two per week
Doing this 2x per week with 2 weeks annual vacation for 1,000 years sure sounds like hell to me.

What do the 100 Billion people get to do while they wait for their turn?

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Re: Temple Work - A Losing Proposition

Post by el-asherah » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:15 am

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:52 am
Conclusion: things aren't looking too rosy for the redemption of our dead.
I have to ask the obvious question. Where in the canonized revelations of the church does God authorize/require the church / brethren to perform temple ordinances for the redemption of the dead for all of humanity (100+ billion people)?

I'm sorry but I can't find it. I can not find it anywhere in the D&C, BoM, Bible, PoGP, or any other canonized revelation of the church.

The only revelation that comes even close is D&C 138, which is a "spiritual eyes of understanding type vision" that JFS received in 1918, several decades after the practice had started. This section of the D&C was not canonized until the early 1980s, and was not even in the D&C I used on my mission!! Regardless the vision doesn't authorize or require the church to do redemption for the dead for all of humanity. The vision is a statement of the practice that had been going on for decades. Where is the source revelation requiring temple ordinances for the redemption of the dead for all of humanity?

The idea of temple ordinances for the redemption for the dead for all of humanity also directly contradicts the existing canonized revelations of the church specifically D&C 137: 1-8

1 The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell.

5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

Per D&C 137:7-8 - for the vast majority of humanity - no temple ordinances are required in order to reach the Celestial Kingdom!!

This folk-doctrine appears to have morphed out of attempts to justify the temple during the "black hole years of polygamy in the 1800s", and all church leader since the late 1800s until now just repeat it because it is what the prior leaders said, and they are infallible and can not lead the church astray.

The more I study church history the more clear it has become to me that the idea that the brethren can not lead the church astray is the very mechanism that can cause the church to be lead astray. Since this belief removes all self correcting feedback mechanisms in the institution, such as common consent, or doctrine based on the scriptures.
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Corsair
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Re: Temple Work - A Losing Proposition

Post by Corsair » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:54 pm

Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:51 am
Corsair wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:35 am


If each person does a wimpy 2 temple sessions per week and has a two week vacation... Yes, that is baptism, initiatory, ordination, endowment, and sealings which might take you all morning for one name. But you only need to do two per week
Doing this 2x per week with 2 weeks annual vacation for 1,000 years sure sounds like hell to me.

What do the 100 Billion people get to do while they wait for their turn?
I suppose the 100 billion are waiting in spirit prison. Many would have been their for thousands of years. Worrying about my ancestors in the 18th century seems rather trifling compared to citizens of Sumer waiting since 4500 BC.

Seriously, I want to check what the Telestial crowd is doing while this is going on. It might compare favorably if all the Celestial people are just doing the temple for one thousand years. The hand waving from seminary and Sunday School about what else goes on seems to involve keeping civilization running during the Millennium. But we are already depending on omnisience and omnipotence to provide accurate names for 100 billion people throughout history. It seems an amusing waste of resources to think that humans are doing anything useful if God can use magic.

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Re: Temple Work - A Losing Proposition

Post by oliver_denom » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:58 pm

Corsair wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:54 pm
Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:51 am
Corsair wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:35 am


If each person does a wimpy 2 temple sessions per week and has a two week vacation... Yes, that is baptism, initiatory, ordination, endowment, and sealings which might take you all morning for one name. But you only need to do two per week
Doing this 2x per week with 2 weeks annual vacation for 1,000 years sure sounds like hell to me.

What do the 100 Billion people get to do while they wait for their turn?
I suppose the 100 billion are waiting in spirit prison. Many would have been their for thousands of years. Worrying about my ancestors in the 18th century seems rather trifling compared to citizens of Sumer waiting since 4500 BC.
Will we need to also baptize neanderthals and denisovans? If not, then what about us since we're all hybrid offspring?
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