What is the actual benefit of "Families are Forever"

[slavereeno]

I have been thinking about the Families can be Together Forever thing. Its one of those comforting things and is used to bring a lot of people into the church. I personally don't believe in the Mormon doctrines anymore of three kingdoms of heaven, so this question is just how TBM make sense of this...

1. How is my nuclear family supposed to be "together forever" if they all have their own spouses and families? Wouldn't we all just be couples with rights to visit each other? Most parents are very emotionally tied to their young children, how is it not emotional manipulation to use this emotional bond to sell them the one and only cure for the separation anxiety that many parents naturally feel?

2. If you have to be sealed in order to be a forever family, does that mean that God will put you in solitary confinement in the T-Kingdoms, or prevent travel between kingdoms? Isn't that a bit harsh for someone who was a really good person but thought that the Lutherans were right? Loving God?

3. If a family are all in one of the T-Kingdoms together does he put up some kind of magic barrier to prevent them from talking or interacting with one another? Kind of a jerk move really. God: "You didn't join the right handshake club on Earth, so I'ma put this invisible magic barrier between you any anybody you love."

4. Polygamy and Forever Families were originally one in the same. Will forever families be necessarily polygamous? If a man is not excommunicated but not truly faithful either will his wife then be given to another man? Will a faithful man need to take another wife? Will a woman of faith and a non-member husband who was a good person be separated and she then given to another man?

5. Joseph Smith compelled some of his wives to marry him, some of that compulsion was explained as threats from God. Why did we have a war in heaven over agency if God is just going to turn around and force marriages? Will such coercion then be used to enforce polygamy heaven? Can a woman opt out of the C-Kingdom if she doesn't want to be somebody's 72nd wife so she can chill with her ex-mo hubby in the T-Kingdom?

5. What purpose does this spiritual extortion serve? Why have to do a "sealing" to not be tormented by God for eternity by being intentionally separated from your loved ones? Why not base this on they way you treated your loved ones or the manner in which you cultivated those relationships? Seems like a perfect setup for leaders to take advantage of and exercise control over, the membership and not founded on anything of value to our actual souls!

6. In the T-Kingdoms, given an eternity and while one would miss their family, they would inevitably form new loving bonds with others. If you form too close an attachment to another soul, will god come and split you up. Is the Mormon God the god of anti-love?

7. Is this all about sex and procreation? Is the punishment that God removes your junk if you're not in his secret handshake club? Are eternal families all about doing the deed, one man and many women for eternity? What if a woman thinks this is gross, can she opt out, or again, will she be compelled like some of Joseph Smith's wives?

Now that I am (mentally) out, this stuff is making less and less sense to me. Things aren't adding up. The Mormon God seems like a real tool and I am not sure I would even want to be with him forever if I could somehow believe again. He seems to value our actual self development very little, at least he values it for nought if its not done in the Mormon church...

[Palerider]

Slavereeno, you are just WAY, WAY over-thinking this entire doctrine and concept. You shouldn't get yourself all worked up asking these logical and rational questions.

It's difficult for us in our temporal state to understand the things of God so just try to have faith that everything will be fine and then concentrate more on doing your home teaching and reading conference talks.

There....doesn’t that feel much better? Would you like a cookie or some smores?? How about those Cougars, eh?

[slavereeno]

There....doesn’t that feel much better? Would you like a cookie or some smores?? How about those Cougars, eh?

Yes! exactly! "You need to read the Book of Mormon more and pray." "These are just the mysteries of God." Ug, sometimes I just can't stand this crap.

[Corsair]

What is the first known instance of the LDS use of "Families are Forever"? I don't know what it is, but I don't think it was Joseph Smith and it certainly isn't in the Bible, Book of Mormon, D&C, or PoGP.

"Families Can Be Together Forever" is in the Primary Children's Songbook on page 188. The copyright data on the song is:

Words: Ruth Muir Gardner, 1927–1999. © 1980 IRI
Music: Vanja Y. Watkins, b. 1938. © 1980 IRI

1980 is the earliest year I can find on it so far.

"Families are Forever" feels like marketing, not doctrine. It's rather thin rhetoric playing on a fear of not being with your family after you die. It looks like a shallow, negative interpretation of the classic wedding vow, "Till death do you part". Combined with a heavy dose of anti-Catholic sentiment in the 1960s, the phrase "Families are Forever" seems like an advertising slogan for children and has been elevated to de facto doctrine these days.

This ignores the common Christian belief that a merciful God will happily reunite you with your family in the next world. Eternal sealings in the temple are only an issue if you are confident that God will separate men and women as a matter of cosmic policy. It assumes that God's love is not sufficient to consider that family members just might want to see their deceased relatives in the next world.

Let me be clear that this is all conjecture on my part and I don't know the full origin of this phrase. I would happily accept some hard data on this.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Pratt was one of the first to write up about how much he loved the family sealing concept that Joseph taught. Since he had lost his favorite first wife Thankful, you can imagine its appeal.

The first time I came across differing opinions on this doctrine was when on the mission a thoughtful catholic woman said "Doesn't everyone believe that?" And my eyes were opened to the fact that only Mormons think this is a special idea.

The other thing you bring up is the concept of "sad heaven" where those who make it to the celestial level will miss us TK smoothies in the lower kingdoms. My Dad's answer to that is the celestial kingdom dwellers will have their memories of the losers erased so they won't be missed. There's also the folk doctrine that CK folks get to visit the lower kingdoms but not the other way around.

[slavereeno]

My Dad's answer to that is the celestial kingdom dwellers will have their memories of the losers erased so they won't be missed.

Its not my intention to disrespect your father, (mine would probably say the same thing) but that sounds completely ridiculous, and God would be all the more a tool for doing that..

Seriously who actually wants to be with this version of God anyway?

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

My Dad's answer to that is the celestial kingdom dwellers will have their memories of the losers erased so they won't be missed.

Its not my intention to disrespect your father, (mine would probably say the same thing) but that sounds completely ridiculous, and God would be all the more a tool for doing that..

Seriously who actually wants to be with this version of God anyway?

Haha, since my Dad is a NOM he was likely saying that in jest, although he grew up in the 40's and 50's so it's quite possible it was a real teaching at the time.

[crossmyheart]

I don't know why but I read your whole post in Rodney Dangerfield's voice. This reads like a really good comedy routine. You should give it wearing a black and white striped inmate costume and a pair of broken wings.

The sad part is that these are real sources of cognitive dissonance.

[slavereeno]

Haha, since my Dad is a NOM he was likely saying that in jest, although he grew up in the 40's and 50's so it's quite possible it was a real teaching at the time.

Good then I can feel free to laugh! Wish that were the case for my own father...

[slavereeno]

The sad part is that these are real sources of cognitive dissonance.

Yes, exactly I want to find it funny myself but I have a whole family and extended family still up to their eyebrows in this stuff, so I end up getting incensed.

[Red Ryder]

I don't know why but I read your whole post in Rodney Dangerfield's voice. This reads like a really good comedy routine. You should give it wearing a black and white striped inmate costume and a pair of broken wings.

I read it in Wanda Sykes voice. I think I was a black lesbian women comedian in a past life since the voices in my head usually talk to me in her voice.

To answer your question...

Intangible Religious Benefits.

[Rob4Hope]

If Families are Forever, get me the H#LL OUT NOW!!!!!!!


GAWD, I don't want to be around MANY People in my family forever!

GEEZ man...that gave me shivers right down to my TK Smoothies!!!!

[Reuben]

GEEZ man...that gave me shivers right down to my TK Smoothies!!!!

I prefer to call them "tender mercies," which my kids think is hilarious, but I like your term, too.

[Dravin]

My Dad's answer to that is the celestial kingdom dwellers will have their memories of the losers erased so they won't be missed. There's also the folk doctrine that CK folks get to visit the lower kingdoms but not the other way around.

I know you subsequently mentioned your Dad might have been joking, but if taken seriously he is denouncing the idea that such people can become like god with such a 'solution'. People unable to remember loved ones cannot be termed all knowing, a trait god supposedly posseses. I know currently the church is shying away from it's past takes on apotheosis but that is quite a step back from someone who would have learned the doctrine before Mormonism started becoming so self-conscious about it.

[MoPag]

The first time I came across differing opinions on this doctrine was when on the mission a thoughtful catholic woman said "Doesn't everyone believe that?" And my eyes were opened to the fact that only Mormons think this is a special idea.

All the moms in my bereaved moms group (including me) believe we will be with our children again. And it would take one giant f%$#ing a$$hat to tell us we won't.

[Ghost]

This discussion makes me think of how other traditions view the afterlife. I could be wrong, but Mormonism may be fairly unusual in saying anything even halfway concrete about what the experience after death will be like.

I once talked with a minister of another Christian faith who told me that the heaven he looked forward to would be one in which his individual personality would be absorbed into God and he would basically cease to exist but would add to God's glory. I've heard others talk about simply praising God forever.

People of many traditions seem to assume that they will be reunited with family. At least as long as everyone makes it to heaven in a tradition that has a Heaven/Hell split, I guess. But what if two people consigned to different destinations care more about remaining together than about where they are? That would seem to present the same issue as the kingdoms in Mormonism, only with eternal torture or something in place of Telestial Glory, for example.

The same goes for traditions that include "annihilationism," such as Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses. You aren't just separated from your family, one or more of you may simply cease to exist forever.

[Reuben]

But what if two people consigned to different destinations care more about remaining together than about where they are? That would seem to present the same issue as the kingdoms in Mormonism, only with eternal torture or something in place of Telestial Glory, for example.

The same goes for traditions that include "annihilationism," such as Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses. You aren't just separated from your family, one or more of you may simply cease to exist forever.

Absolutely. There's effectively little difference, despite the differences in doctrine. From what I can tell, when a baptized Witness dissociates (i.e. resigns) or is disfellowshipped (i.e. is excommunicated), the fear and betrayal felt by believing family is the same. They're deeply hurt by the fact that the person deliberately did something that ensures that he or she won't be raised with them after Armageddon. They're afraid that the person will corrupt them and other believing family members, and thereby cost them their eternal lives.

On the other hand, it looks like a uniquely Mormon thing to make a believer afraid that he or she has already lost out on exaltation because of the unbelief or actions of a spouse. So we win on that count, I guess...

[RubinHighlander]

If Families are Forever, get me the H#LL OUT NOW!!!!!!!

I admit that the older I get the more I enjoy being alone. I'm sure my 30 minute commute each day, dealing with a plethora of idiots, helps drive that desire as well. Raising a family has been tedious. It's a good thing I did it when I was young and dumb becuase I'd never sign up for that crap now. Let's be honest here; the rewards do not outweigh all the stress, pain, patience and work. I guess if your kid ends up saving the world or something then maybe, but the number of moments of sorrow put on the scale with the moments of joy in the effort don't balance out for me. If any of my adult kids decide to have grandkids, then that might change my mind...maybe. But will I just be worrying about my grandkids and then the stress just increases? Even my DW had admitted that if she had it to do over again she probably would not have had kids.

Don't get me wrong here, I love my kids! I know it's selfish that I'd rather just be running around a national monument or park shooting pics of awesome landscapes, especially when I was younger and would have had more time, money and strength to do it. After a lifetime on the COB treadmill, being fed all the FAF BS, I say frack it!

So the thought of sitting on a throne in a big house in VIPCK with millions of sealed relatives, spinning up my own planet full of billions of kids, most of whom won't make it anyway (because of the Fd up rules I'll have to put in place to make it nearly impossible for most of them to ever make it back to my VIPCK...NOPE!

Perhaps that's why so few kids make it back to VIPCK, because HF is like "There's no way in hell I'm letting most of those little douche bags into my VIPCK; I just got this place childproofed!" Unconditional love my assets! So he set a limit of 0.02% of his total progeny (he's probably even regretting that number), throwing all kinds of obstacles in their way (dinosaurs, dodgy histories, crazy cultish practices, lots of stupid rules...) or just leaving the secret keys hidden in hard to find places or unavailable throughout most of recorded history.

[Hagoth]

I saw a comment on another forum by a therapist who said she sees a lot of LDS patients who were traumatized as kids, believing that if they weren't perfect God would take their families away from them.

But if you really think about it, eternal families make no sense. Everyone who makes it to the CK might be with their spouse(s), but their parents and kids will presumably be with their spouse(s). Eternal nuclear families are impossible. Plus, considering that about half of the people who lived before modern medicine died in their early childhood, and many still do, we'll have a lot of babies and toddlers hooking up in the eternities to create planets full of people. (Question: are they fertile?)

[RubinHighlander]

Plus, considering that about half of the people who lived before modern medicine died in their early childhood, and many still do, we'll have a lot of babies and toddlers hooking up in the eternities to create planets full of people. (Question: are they fertile?)

Not that it really matters now, but growing up, I'd been taught that everyone will be at their prime, like 20 somethings, after they are ressurected? I don't know if that was actual dogma or just TBM interpretation. Again, more gymnastics to try and make an afterlife work. Coming up with magical ways preserve this crude galactic matter is a big delimma in an of itself with all the evidence of entropy throughout the universe.