At which point is someone a full tithe payer (rhetorical)

[Ben Davis]

So as you may know from some of my other posts here I began the road back into full activity a few months ago. For me, the final big step was tithing. I haven’t paid in YEARS but prior had always been a full tithe payer. This past week I paid tithing and it felt great.

HOWEVER, I went in for a recommend interview and stated “yes, and I started paying tithing this past week”. My bishop must have considered it a bit opportunistic timing wise and Began giving me the hard sell on paying “back tithing”...WTF?

He’d advance and retreat for the next several minutes saying “I don’t want to know how much you make”, but also “how much is it going to take for you to be a full tithe payer? For me to feel like your a full tithe payer” “how do I know you’ll continue” “What’s the number?” “You admitted to having just started this past week.” I responded with things like “I’m not trying to hide anything” “you’ll have to trust my desire to live with integrity”, “I hadn’t considered this, not prepared to discuss.” “I don’t know”, “I don’t want you to do anything you don’t feel comfortable about and if you want to see a pattern let’s wait to sign the recommend” etc. it was kinda weird but he kept pushing all the while I’m trying to facilitate him in working out the doctrinal nature of the question when finally he asked the question again and I simply replied “yes”

What’s really frustrating for me is that I’ve been on a faith transition for the past ~11 years or so and I feel like I’m making progress and figuring out what works for me in the gospel. For me this is a cause for celebration and the guy hammers it down over the questionably anti-doctrinal idea of back tithing to save, what, his own ego or cover his a$$. Ugh.

He closed the interview by jokingly telling me he’ll haunt me if I don’t pay. But if we’re a betting man I’d call it an expression of stress. Whatevs. I’m offended by the guy but he’s just a man and my expectations of him don’t elevate him to god status. I other words haven’t given him the power to turn me away from my spirituality.

The fact that tithing is sort of a, “hey if they’re (TBMs et al) paying too much, they don’t need to know they are and instead let’s perpetuate the net v. gross debate” is of questionable organizational integrity, adding this idea of back tithing sucked. What is someone else with less of an authority problem going to do? Pony up 11 years worth of tithing??

All that said, back tithing can’t be doctrinal, right?

[platapus]

What a weenie! If I were you, I would just pay directly to the church online. That way you cut out the middle man and then just tell the guy "Yup I pay full tithing online". None of his business anyway.

[ulmite]

Do converts have to pay back tithing? (rhetorical)

[oliver_denom]

All that said, back tithing can’t be doctrinal, right?

You are a full tithe payer the moment your declare yourself a full tithe payer. There's no such thing as "back tithing". Next time ask him to show you where back tithing is explained either in the scriptures or the hand book of instructions. He won't, because it doesn't exist.

Now he can choose not to believe you and deny your recommend, but he can't define tithing in any other way that what the church has defined, 10% of your increase. When they decide to change that to 10% of your increase over your entire life to the date of the interview, then maybe he'd have a point.

[Red Ryder]

Ask him if he can pull out the last 11 years of tithing declaration forms and amend them?

If he says yes, then pay up.
If he says no, then tell him you'll be happy to discuss your status this coming Nov/Dec.

My bishop specifically told me no back tithing was necessary. I agreed with him. We still disagree on current tithing though.

[Ben Davis]

What a weenie! If I were you, I would just pay directly to the church online. That way you cut out the middle man and then just tell the guy "Yup I pay full tithing online". None of his business anyway.

Yes I think everyone interested should.

I set up then paid anonymously and will from here on out. Just easier and tithing is between me and the lord.

[Palerider]

I sincerely hope you have found a path that brings real happiness and freedom. I can't judge anyone who follows a particular philosophy or religion as long as they are completely informed and have both eyes open.

But from my point of view it's really hard to see someone retun to this kind of psychological enslavement and abuse. I think tithing will be the least of your worries.

Best of luck.

[Anon70]

What a weenie! If I were you, I would just pay directly to the church online. That way you cut out the middle man and then just tell the guy "Yup I pay full tithing online". None of his business anyway.

Yes I think everyone interested should.

I set up then paid anonymously and will from here on out. Just easier and tithing is between me and the lord.

How is it anonymous? I pay through LDS.org and last year they changed the setting so I can no longer select “do not print out for my ward” or some such

[platapus]

What a weenie! If I were you, I would just pay directly to the church online. That way you cut out the middle man and then just tell the guy "Yup I pay full tithing online". None of his business anyway.

Yes I think everyone interested should.

I set up then paid anonymously and will from here on out. Just easier and tithing is between me and the lord.

How is it anonymous? I pay through LDS.org and last year they changed the setting so I can no longer select “do not print out for my ward” or some such

Been a while since I paid... That would suck. I am of the opinion that until they open their books, I'm not giving anything. I expect that out of any institution that I voluntarily give my money to. Hell even the USG does it to some extent and I HAVE to pay them.

[Reuben]

I don't recall whether there's specific language in Handbook 1 about back tithing, but from what I've seen, bishops (and stake presidents) feel free to determine whether it's required.

As far as the 10% goes, they aren't supposed to even ask about what your tithing is 10% of.

Your bishop's pushy shakedown is definitely out of line. If he's not a new bishop, it's almost certainly not the first time he's done it. He undermines his institutional authority and relationships with members by doing it. The stake president should be notified so he can correct your bishop, but I don't want to say that it's your responsibility to tell him.

[Unendowed]

What a weenie! If I were you, I would just pay directly to the church online. That way you cut out the middle man and then just tell the guy "Yup I pay full tithing online". None of his business anyway.

Yes I think everyone interested should.

I set up then paid anonymously and will from here on out. Just easier and tithing is between me and the lord.

How is it anonymous? I pay through LDS.org and last year they changed the setting so I can no longer select “do not print out for my ward” or some such

You have to contact the church finance department and set up a bill pay through your bank for your donations to be completely anonymous from your local leaders. Donating through LDS.org has the same visibility as handing your bishop a check. I've been paying through bill pay for several years and can verify that my local ward cannot see what my donations are. If asked (I've never been questioned about it) I will tell my bishop I feel tithing is between me and the Lord but I am a full tithing payer. What can he do but just trust me?

[Mormorrisey]

Just to echo here that you seem to have lost at bishop roulette.

I had people when I was in that position who were coming back, and worried about paying back tithing. I basically said, here's your recommend, just pay it going forward. That was it. It seemed stupid to me that God wears a little accountant hat and would be counting every dime you give him. That seems more like SLC's job.

I'd keep fighting that one.

[slavereeno]

Your bishop's pushy shakedown is definitely out of line. If he's not a new bishop, it's almost certainly not the first time he's done it. He undermines his institutional authority and relationships with members by doing it. The stake president should be notified so he can correct your bishop, but I don't want to say that it's your responsibility to tell him.

When I served as a minor demon in the stake presidency (SES) our SP reprimanded a BP and refused to sign a recommend because the applicant "Had not shown a pattern of paying tithing" I believe this behaviour is being taught to my SP from on high, they don't want people to pay 1 week's worth of tithing to get a 2 year TR then stop paying until the next TR interview time. They would like to make sure that tithing is going to be paid consistently. It is very very much a pay to pray church. All the warm fuzzies about blessings from paying tithes and it being between the Lord and you etc. is BS, they defiantly want the cash. I was always told that "The Lord doesn't need your money, you need to pay so you can get blessings" If that were true, why even hold the TR for ransom over tithing? Why not just let the blessings from God be the only incentive if its all spiritual an not temporal as I have been taught. Basically it boils down to "If you don't pay up, we will make sure you miss your kids' weddings" and they are pretty serious about it too. That's been my observation anyway.

Sorry that got a bit ranty, bottom line is I think they have been instructed to do this sort of thing...

[Anon70]

Yes I think everyone interested should.

I set up then paid anonymously and will from here on out. Just easier and tithing is between me and the lord.

How is it anonymous? I pay through LDS.org and last year they changed the setting so I can no longer select “do not print out for my ward” or some such

You have to contact the church finance department and set up a bill pay through your bank for your donations to be completely anonymous from your local leaders. Donating through LDS.org has the same visibility as handing your bishop a check. I've been paying through bill pay for several years and can verify that my local ward cannot see what my donations are. If asked (I've never been questioned about it) I will tell my bishop I feel tithing is between me and the Lord but I am a full tithing payer. What can he do but just trust me?

Thanks. For years I did it this way and the bishop got a blank report on us. My understanding is that changed because 2017.

I gave a friend advice to tell the bishop it was between them and the lord and he declared them part payers and is withholding a TR.

[Thoughtful]

What a weenie! If I were you, I would just pay directly to the church online. That way you cut out the middle man and then just tell the guy "Yup I pay full tithing online". None of his business anyway.

Yes I think everyone interested should.

I set up then paid anonymously and will from here on out. Just easier and tithing is between me and the lord.

How is it anonymous? I pay through LDS.org and last year they changed the setting so I can no longer select “do not print out for my ward” or some such

Its under settings in your LDS.org account. I did not get one in December, having selected this. However, I pray online from my checking account now, and selected anonymous at the ward level. That way, hopefully they can't look it up.

[AdmiralHoldo]

My husband is fully TBM, but hasn't paid tithing in the last several months. This is because we are just barely scraping by, financially - I keep asking him to call the mortgage company and see if we can make arrangements but he'd rather raid our (paltry) 401K in order to pay our bills. I'm really surprised to find out that he would stop paying tithing when he's always been a big believer in the prosperity gospel - even though it's never actually manifested itself in our lives. He's even paid tithing on his unemployment checks - and no, the fact that we've been full tithe payers hasn't prevented him from being unemployed/underemployed for most of the last 10 years. Also, once he told me that I stopped paying tithing on my puny earnings - I don't particularly believe that any blessings come from tithing, it feels more like the paying of indulgences to me. Anyway, long story short I'm assuming that when the pendulum swings back towards us not being d@mn broke, he's going to want to pay the God Tax again, and I'm not sure if he's just going to start over fresh or try and pay "back tithing" - and I'm not even sure how to approach it with him.

[Ben Davis]

AdmiralHoldo my wife is TBM and I discussed the original meaning of “increase” and her knowing the doctrinal grey area that tithing is (no clear direction from the church exists) she was fine with it. Folks falling on hard times weren’t meant to pay etc.
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