New Ministering Program

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Can of Worms
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Re: New Ministering Program

Post by Can of Worms » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:31 pm

Ugh - I hope this doesn't mean we get more visits. Every three months we get an unscheduled "visit". Brother M rings our doorbell and then pounds on the door for five minutes. DH and I just sit and wait for him to go away while the dog barks at him. The RS has left me alone for nearly 2 years and HT left us alone for over 5 - it was amazing while it lasted. I dread what this change could mean.
Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.” Winston Churchill

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Jeffret
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Re: New Ministering Program

Post by Jeffret » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:40 pm

Give It Time wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:30 pm
I've done that "just count this as a visit". Really hurt the VTs feelings. I've also found that nevertheless they persist.

Will have to be firmer.
I think the VTs persist more than the EQ HTs do. When I was ward clerk, I received the VT reports very promptly and thoroughly. I think they were pretty accurate. The HPG HT reports were not quite as prompt but seemed to be pretty thorough and accurate. I only received the EQ HT reports once, weeks after they were due, and after that I just made up similar numbers for them.

I fully recognize my privilege as a man, that church leaders listen to me more than they would a woman. Women are trained not to be bold and firm, or else they're considered bitchy and even then they're generally ignored by the leaders.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Give It Time
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Re: New Ministering Program

Post by Give It Time » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:49 pm

I testify to the truthfulness of what you just said. Even making up the numbers part. I've done that, myself.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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slavereeno
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Re: New Ministering Program

Post by slavereeno » Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:05 pm

Give It Time wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:30 pm
I've done that "just count this as a visit". Really hurt the VTs feelings. I've also found that nevertheless they persist.
DW makes the comment, that she doesn't want to offend her visiting teachers by telling them a visit is not required. When I tell the home teachers they don't have to come they seem so happy they're about to wet themselves. I know I am.

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Not Buying It
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Re: New Ministering Program

Post by Not Buying It » Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:19 pm

Geez, people, quit caring about what anyone else thinks. This is a prime opportunity to take back your power. When they ask you to be a “minister”, say “no I don’t want to minister or be ministered to”, and when they ask why, say “I have my reasons” and leave it at that. If you hurt someone’s feelings, they will get over it. It’s not in your best interest to participate in a stupid program you don’t agree with just to spare someone’s feelings.

I know a lot of you have spouses that keep you from doing this, but for Pete’s sake, if you are in a position to say “no”, say “no”. Don’t give any more of your life to the Church’s stupid programs if you don’t have to. This is your chance to make a clean break from all of the Church’s HT/VT/“ministering” nonsense. Grab it with both hands.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Give It Time
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Re: New Ministering Program

Post by Give It Time » Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:20 pm

Not Buying It wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:19 pm
Geez, people, quit caring about what anyone else thinks. This is a prime opportunity to take back your power. When they ask you to be a “minister”, say “no I don’t want to minister or be ministered to”, and when they ask why, say “I have my reasons” and leave it at that. If you hurt someone’s feelings, they will get over it. It’s not in your best interest to participate in a stupid program you don’t agree with just to spare someone’s feelings.

I know a lot of you have spouses that keep you from doing this, but for Pete’s sake, if you are in a position to say “no”, say “no”. Don’t give any more of your life to the Church’s stupid programs if you don’t have to. This is your chance to make a clean break from all of the Church’s HT/VT/“ministering” nonsense. Grab it with both hands.
I wish we had like buttons, here.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Spicy McHaggis
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Re: New Ministering Program

Post by Spicy McHaggis » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:04 am

I just hope they half-ass it as much as they half-ass every thing else. If they don't leave me the hell alone like the HTs I'll be pissed.


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Hagoth
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Re: New Ministering Program

Post by Hagoth » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:18 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:26 pm
If I’m invited to “minister”, I plan to opt out. I know how to say “no” if I have to. I should have said “no” to home teaching, but I have since learned my lesson.
I will say, it sounds like exactly what I'm already doing. I check in with my family from time to time, drop off goodies, treat them like my friends - because that's how I think if them, NEVER show up the last week of the month to check off a box, and very seldom get a phone call from anyone checking up on me. If you hadn't told me there was a new revelation I wouldn't have noticed any difference.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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wtfluff
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Re: New Ministering Program

Post by wtfluff » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:20 am

mooseman wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:46 am
How can you know its already failed?
I don't think anyone "knows" that it's already failed.

Personally, I'm just basing my prediction that "ministering" will suck on the history of the previous program.

If my prophecy fails, I personally won't have a problem admitting I was wrong.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

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Corsair
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Re: New Ministering Program

Post by Corsair » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:53 am

wtfluff wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:20 am
mooseman wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:46 am
How can you know its already failed?
I don't think anyone "knows" that it's already failed.

Personally, I'm just basing my prediction that "ministering" will suck on the history of the previous program.

If my prophecy fails, I personally won't have a problem admitting I was wrong.
How would know that this program has "succeeded" or "failed"? I agree with you, wtfluff. The likely course of this announcement will be more of the same style of ministering, but it's still better than the painful status quo after decades of home teaching. Here is my first draft for objectively judging this program.
  • SUCCESS: Increased attendance in sacrament meeting and activity world wide after a year
  • FAILURE: Decreased attendance in sacrament meeting and activity world wide after a year
This is running in parallel with HP and EQ combining into one quorum, but I am willing to observe the effects of both of these major endeavors together.

Assuming we can trust the numbers provided in the statistical report, we already have decades of data. Each April the church announces the number of units (wards + branches) and total membership for the preceeding year. The ratio of members to units has been going up over the past 40 years based on data in the May conference report every year. Here is a selection:
  • Year - Units - Membersthip - Ratio
  • 1979 - 11,486 - 4,439,000 - 386.5
  • 1980 - 12,591 - 4,638,000 - 368.4
  • 1985 - 15,005 - 5,920,000 - 394.5
  • 1990 - 18,090 - 7,760,000 - 429.0
  • 1995 - 22,697 - 9,340,898 - 411.5
  • 2000 - 25,915 - 11,068,861 - 427.1
  • 2005 - 27,087 - 12,560,869 - 463.7
  • 2010 - 28,660 - 14,131,467 - 493.1
  • 2014 - 29,621 - 15,372,337 - 519.0
  • 2015 - 30,016 - 15,643,199 - 521.2
  • 2016 - 30,304 - 15,882,417 - 524.0
  • 2017 - 30,506 - 16,118,169 - 528.4
The ratio of member / unit should be the average number of people in sacrament meeting each week in each ward or branch world wide. We have observed that a "strong" ward will have 300 people in it and we all know of struggling wards with less that 100 per week along with tiny branches that have a dozen or two.

These are some of the few numbers that the church makes public since we know that the church has detailed rates of temple worthiness, temple attendance, sacrament meeting attendance, youth going on missions, and formal resignations. Let's see what the church produces in one and two years from now after the implementation begins.

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oliver_denom
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Re: New Ministering Program

Post by oliver_denom » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:12 am

If this is implemented as described, then it will be a lot worse than the home teaching program.

Basically, the program remains the same, but the emphasis on numbers is being shifted away from whether someone was visited, and toward whether the leadership has interviewed a ministering companionship.

So let's say that I'm an EQP and I have ten "ministering" companionships assigned to two families each who I've "prayed" about. Instead of calling these companionships at the end of each month and saying, "Did you do a visit?", I now need to sit down and interview them.

Now, instead of a number, I'm expected to extract an entire report. That's the number that gets reported, "Did you conduct a ministering interview?" Visits to people's homes will probably increase, because now they can't just blow off the question with a quick yes or no. They'll have to have material to bring to a full on conversation.

Ugh. No.

If this follows the familiar pattern, then this new program won't last long. When I was an EQP, we were also supposed to conduct quarterly PPI's, which is basically the same thing. We would talk about home teaching, yada, yada, yada, that's nice but do more. No one was ever available for these things, and they just didn't happen.

Unfortunately, for any EQP who is super scrupulous, this has got to be the greatest change ever. He and his secretary will have unlimited reign over people's time and personal information. I plan to say, "It's my understanding that these visits are going to be reported back to the EQP and ward council, and I'm not comfortable with that. So just give everyone my best, and no thank you."
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RubinHighlander
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Re: New Ministering Program

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:40 am

oliver_denom wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:12 am
If this follows the familiar pattern, then this new program won't last long. When I was an EQP, we were also supposed to conduct quarterly PPI's, which is basically the same thing. We would talk about home teaching, yada, yada, yada, that's nice but do more. No one was ever available for these things, and they just didn't happen.
I pulled two EQP tours in MORCOR for several years in well established wards. The number of actual sit down successful PPIs would be less than my physical digits, of which I have all of them. Gathering numbers via phone, email, hallway passing or text was much easier than trying to get people into a room for an actual face to face. Now the COB has made that process even more painful and I think chances of success are going to further dwindle. Of course TMBs will find creative and justified ways to get leaders off their backs with reports of just enough data to make it look like they are not complete slackers. Most will feel the continual weight of the guilt of an unmagnified calling.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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A New Name
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Re: New Ministering Program

Post by A New Name » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:42 am

This is how I've been doing HT for over 20 years. Nothing new here for me. Also, my PPI will be in the hall and will take 20 seconds.
EQP: Hey we need to do a PPI for the quarter.
Me: All my families are good. If there is a problem, I'll tell you, and not wait for a PPI
EQP; But I'm suppose to have a.................
Me: Well, got to go, nice talking to you.

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mooseman
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Re: New Ministering Program

Post by mooseman » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:56 am

Corsair wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:53 am
wtfluff wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:20 am
mooseman wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:46 am
How can you know its already failed?
I don't think anyone "knows" that it's already failed.

Personally, I'm just basing my prediction that "ministering" will suck on the history of the previous program.

If my prophecy fails, I personally won't have a problem admitting I was wrong.
How would know that this program has "succeeded" or "failed"? I agree with you, wtfluff. The likely course of this announcement will be more of the same style of ministering, but it's still better than the painful status quo after decades of home teaching. Here is my first draft for objectively judging this program.
  • SUCCESS: Increased attendance in sacrament meeting and activity world wide after a year
  • FAILURE: Decreased attendance in sacrament meeting and activity world wide after a year
This is running in parallel with HP and EQ combining into one quorum, but I am willing to observe the effects of both of these major endeavors together.

Assuming we can trust the numbers provided in the statistical report, we already have decades of data. Each April the church announces the number of units (wards + branches) and total membership for the preceeding year. The ratio of members to units has been going up over the past 40 years based on data in the May conference report every year. Here is a selection:
  • Year - Units - Membersthip - Ratio
  • 1979 - 11,486 - 4,439,000 - 386.5
  • 1980 - 12,591 - 4,638,000 - 368.4
  • 1985 - 15,005 - 5,920,000 - 394.5
  • 1990 - 18,090 - 7,760,000 - 429.0
  • 1995 - 22,697 - 9,340,898 - 411.5
  • 2000 - 25,915 - 11,068,861 - 427.1
  • 2005 - 27,087 - 12,560,869 - 463.7
  • 2010 - 28,660 - 14,131,467 - 493.1
  • 2014 - 29,621 - 15,372,337 - 519.0
  • 2015 - 30,016 - 15,643,199 - 521.2
  • 2016 - 30,304 - 15,882,417 - 524.0
  • 2017 - 30,506 - 16,118,169 - 528.4
The ratio of member / unit should be the average number of people in sacrament meeting each week in each ward or branch world wide. We have observed that a "strong" ward will have 300 people in it and we all know of struggling wards with less that 100 per week along with tiny branches that have a dozen or two.

These are some of the few numbers that the church makes public since we know that the church has detailed rates of temple worthiness, temple attendance, sacrament meeting attendance, youth going on missions, and formal resignations. Let's see what the church produces in one and two years from now after the implementation begins.
I say failed because it hasnt motivated the base, and members dont see it as revelation, just a name change. It failed to be seen as prophetic.
It's frustrating to see the last resort in a discussion of facts be: I disregard those facts because of my faith. Why even talk about facts if the last resort is to put faith above all facts that are contrary to your faith?

ap1054
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Re: New Ministering Program

Post by ap1054 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:22 pm

Give It Time wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:51 am

There's a saying that goes, "seek first to understand, then to be understood". This ministering program is entirely about seeking first to be understood, then to be understood.
Ha! This is so true.

Imagine what the world would look like if people sought first to understand, then be understood.

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crossmyheart
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Re: New Ministering Program

Post by crossmyheart » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:03 pm

I really feel bad for my RS prez. She has posted nonstop about this on the RS Facebook page. At first she said they still want the March VT reports, then she changed her mind, then she testified of the holy wonderfulness of this new program. And now she keeps posting these semi-incoherent posts showing that she is at a loss about what to do now. She means well, but you can see she is on overload because she has no clear direction from headquarters. So she keeps talking about how prophetic it is, without any real understanding of what "it" really is.


If they dont get their act together and send out some clear directions on this, all of those TBM overachieving type-A's are going to have their heads explode.

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shadow
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Re: New Ministering Program

Post by shadow » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:29 pm

RubinHighlander wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:40 am
oliver_denom wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:12 am
If this follows the familiar pattern, then this new program won't last long. When I was an EQP, we were also supposed to conduct quarterly PPI's, which is basically the same thing. We would talk about home teaching, yada, yada, yada, that's nice but do more. No one was ever available for these things, and they just didn't happen.
I pulled two EQP tours in MORCOR for several years in well established wards. The number of actual sit down successful PPIs would be less than my physical digits, of which I have all of them. Gathering numbers via phone, email, hallway passing or text was much easier than trying to get people into a room for an actual face to face. Now the COB has made that process even more painful and I think chances of success are going to further dwindle. Of course TMBs will find creative and justified ways to get leaders off their backs with reports of just enough data to make it look like they are not complete slackers. Most will feel the continual weight of the guilt of an unmagnified calling.
This is going to break some EQ presidents. With the new combined adult priesthood quorum, there are half as many melchezidek priesthood leaders. Fewer people to do more work.
"Healing is impossible in loneliness; it is the opposite of loneliness. Conviviality is healing. To be healed we must come with all the other creates to the feast of Creation." --Wendell Berry

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Not Buying It
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Re: New Ministering Program

Post by Not Buying It » Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:02 am

I’ve decided to be proactive - I am currently negotiating with my wife to send a message to the bishop informing him our family won’t be participating in “ministering”, either as ministers or being ministered to. I figure it’s a lot easier to take the bull by the horns ahead of time than it is to say no when they have already made an assignment.

I’m gonna take a little power back and put another little boundary up. This is the prime opportunity to do it, and I am not going to miss it.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: New Ministering Program

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:07 am

Not Buying It wrote:I’ve decided to be proactive - I am currently negotiating with my wife to send a message to the bishop informing him our family won’t be participating in “ministering”, either as ministers or being ministered to. I figure it’s a lot easier to take the bull by the horns ahead of time than it is to say no when they have already made an assignment.

I’m gonna take a little power back and put another little boundary up. This is the prime opportunity to do it, and I am not going to miss it.
I must be strange in that I kind of like scaring off new home teachers with uncomfortable commentary. The last set visited twice and never again.

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