The church goes even more opaque

[deacon blues]

I wonder if there might a time of "pruning" the vines in the future. The leaders might say, "Our numbers are going South, so let's just get rid of the deadwood and call it a "New Reformation."

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

I wonder if there might a time of "pruning" the vines in the future. The leaders might say, "Our numbers are going South, so let's just get rid of the deadwood and call it a "New Reformation."

I think an 1850s style reformation is just what the doctor (RMN) ordered. We need the block teaching list of questions that ask about murder, personal hygene, coveting our neighbor's things, and keeping livestock that's not our own. Following that, rebaptism will be required. If you live in rural areas and happen to fall out of the habit of blessing the food, you may find yourself accosted by masked elders who force you at knife point to pray and then eat a watermelon from your own field (reference Juanita Brooks).

[consiglieri]

My calendar must be broken, because it is obviously 1984.

https://ldschurchtemples.org/statistics/units/

All Church unit statistical information has been removed at the request of the Church Legal Department.

I am wondering if this page from the website is legit.

Now, I don't know a lot about computers or webpages or anything, but here is what I find.

If I click on your link, it shows a webpage at that site under the heading "statistics" that has the language about the legal department and removing the statistics about units.

BUT if I click on "home" on the same page, it takes me to the home page.

Then if I click on the far right top menu bar under "statistics," it doesn't have the same page about the legal department.

Instead, it actually has all the new statistics right there.

What is going on? Am I missing something?

[Reuben]

My calendar must be broken, because it is obviously 1984.

https://ldschurchtemples.org/statistics/units/

All Church unit statistical information has been removed at the request of the Church Legal Department.

I am wondering if this page from the website is legit.

Now, I don't know a lot about computers or webpages or anything, but here is what I find.

If I click on your link, it shows a webpage at that site under the heading "statistics" that has the language about the legal department and removing the statistics about units.

BUT if I click on "home" on the same page, it takes me to the home page.

Then if I click on the far right top menu bar under "statistics," it doesn't have the same page about the legal department.

Instead, it actually has all the new statistics right there.

What is going on? Am I missing something?

The site now no longer has a "Church Units" page under "Statistics". If it did, the link above would go directly to it.

To see what's missing, you can use the Wayback Machine, which took this snapshot of the site on March 3, 2018:

https://web.archive.org/web/20180303214 ... ics/units/

[Jeffret]

I am wondering if this page from the website is legit.

Now, I don't know a lot about computers or webpages or anything, but here is what I find.

If I click on your link, it shows a webpage at that site under the heading "statistics" that has the language about the legal department and removing the statistics about units.

BUT if I click on "home" on the same page, it takes me to the home page.

Then if I click on the far right top menu bar under "statistics," it doesn't have the same page about the legal department.

Instead, it actually has all the new statistics right there.

What is going on? Am I missing something?

If you look at what used to be on the originally linked page, that content is now missing. Take a look at this archived version: https://web.archive.org/web/20180303214 ... ics/units/. The other page you reference shows much abbreviated information. Specifically, data about specific, individual units are all gone. The aggregate numbers remain on the other page. This seems to be what the church is going after -- data on specific units.

It's possible there are some privacy concerns with the information they are attempting to control. I can't figure out what those concerns might actually be. Sometimes when you get down to specific names of entities, there can be privacy concerns, though. I suspect that's not what's really driving them. I think it's more about attempting to hide the lack of growth.

[consiglieri]

Thanks for the helpful explanations.

I finally see what it is everybody is talking about.

The "Church Units" file on the left of the statistics page is now missing.

Got it!

[moksha]

My calendar must be broken, because it is obviously 1984.

No, it is 2018. How do I know? Because in November, Charles M. Manson will be eligible to have his Temple Work done at either the Manti or the Logan Temples. He is tentatively scheduled to be sealed to Sister L. Squeaky Fromme. His sponsor will be President Theodore R. Bundy of the West Haven Paradise Mission. Upon arrival, he will be given a patriarchal blessing by Mission Patriarch, Grigori Y. Rasputin. It is expected that he will join the spiritual promotions law firm of DeSade McConkie.

[Reuben]

More information, no idea how reliable:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... g_down_on/

Summary: Claims they were using church-sourced data that's not supposed to be made public, and that aside from the statistics making the church look bad, the source data might include "hidden" (i.e. illegal) units in places like China.

If this hidden units thing is true, I can see why K|M would get involved. Also, we would never learn whether that's true, because admitting it would endanger proselyting efforts.

[Jeffret]

Summary: Claims they were using church-sourced data that's not supposed to be made public, and that aside from the statistics making the church look bad, the source data might include "hidden" (i.e. illegal) units in places like China.

This part makes a lot of sense. Once it started to become clear that they were concerned about specific types of data on unit changes, I began to wonder if there wasn't some privacy angle involved. I couldn't figure out what it was but the idea of hidden units makes sense. Even beyond the more obvious situations (e.g., China), there may be concerns about privacy in sensitive or dangerous areas. Though the data hasn't mentioned individuals, it may not be too difficult to tie unit changes to unit leaders, which would make the privacy changes more significant. Eliminating the data from these sites may not wholly solve the problem, but it provide a layer of obscurity that could be helpful.

One tidbit that remains on the ldschurchtemples.org page states, "Wards and branches (includes sensitive units)" and "Districts (includes sensitive units)".

A major part of what is gone are the breakdowns of church units by political boundary.

I suspect that the church doesn't want to divulge this information because of the declining numbers, but privacy concerns are a reasonable concern. Though, maybe they could release the breakdowns themselves and redact the sensitive info. That would then eliminate the need for these other sites to publish the info.

[Archimedes]

The Last Days are indeed upon us.

These hidden units can only be from LDS proselytizing efforts amongst the lost 10 tribes. Bringing them back in the fold should help us sell some Units. It will be 1980s South America all over again.

WoOt

[Hagoth]

One tidbit that remains on the ldschurchtemples.org page states, "Wards and branches (includes sensitive units)" and "Districts (includes sensitive units)".

I don't know about you, but I like to keep both my tidbits and my sensitive units out of the public eye.

[Jeffret]

One tidbit that remains on the ldschurchtemples.org page states, "Wards and branches (includes sensitive units)" and "Districts (includes sensitive units)".

I don't know about you, but I like to keep both my tidbits and my sensitive units out of the public eye.

Well, where it's allowed I really don't mind. It's really the only way to swim. The sun and air all over is quite nice. If you've never tried it I encourage everyone to give it a try. You might find you like it.

[Reuben]

One tidbit that remains on the ldschurchtemples.org page states, "Wards and branches (includes sensitive units)" and "Districts (includes sensitive units)".

I don't know about you, but I like to keep both my tidbits and my sensitive units out of the public eye.

Well, where it's allowed I really don't mind. It's really the only way to swim. The sun and air all over is quite nice. If you've never tried it I encourage everyone to give it a try. You might find you like it.

Well, you know what they say: as an online discussion grows longer, the probability that it drifts into nudist advocacy approaches 1.

[Jeffret]

Well, you know what they say: as an online discussion grows longer, the probability that it drifts into nudist advocacy approaches 1.

Hey, with an invitation like that I had to take it.

[slavereeno]

Well, you know what they say: as an online discussion grows longer, the probability that it drifts into nudist advocacy approaches 1.

Is that like a thing now? My BIL who is TBM but with some significant shelf items has referred me a couple of time to some LDS nudists site. I thought it was a joke, that seems like a contradiction in terms. Isn't that what the garment is for to cover the tidbits etc.? How can someone be an LDS nudist? This is a huge digression from the topic so I suppose the question is rhetorical.

[Jeffret]

Is that like a thing now? My BIL who is TBM but with some significant shelf items has referred me a couple of time to some LDS nudists site. I thought it was a joke, that seems like a contradiction in terms. Isn't that what the garment is for to cover the tidbits etc.? How can someone be an LDS nudist? This is a huge digression from the topic so I suppose the question is rhetorical.

I think we're well off-topic now.

[JustHangingOn@57]

My calendar must be broken, because it is obviously 1984.

No, it is 2018. How do I know? Because in November, Charles M. Manson will be eligible to have his Temple Work done at either the Manti or the Logan Temples. He is tentatively scheduled to be sealed to Sister L. Squeaky Fromme. His sponsor will be President Theodore R. Bundy of the West Haven Paradise Mission. Upon arrival, he will be given a patriarchal blessing by Mission Patriarch, Grigori Y. Rasputin. It is expected that he will join the spiritual promotions law firm of DeSade McConkie.

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that brother Manson's paternal line has holes in it. I'll pass a list around and get maybe 20 or 30 of you brethren to volunteer to do some indexing. Then you sisters can take the names to the newly dedicated JRT to perform the baptisms.

Ooh. I get goosebumps just talking about how spiritually rewarding this will be!

[oliblish]

The church has released the country specific stats on https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/facts-and-statistics#. I guess I can give them credit for that.

I checked on the Africa congregational growth:

2016: 1792 units
2017: 2004 units
net change: 212 units

Worldwide church congregations:

2016: 30304
2017: 30506
net change: 202 units

Net change for whole world excluding Africa: -10
Net change for United States: 0
Net change for Utah: +41
Net change for US excluding Utah: -41

I think it is pretty incredible that the number of congregations excluding Africa decreased. Flat growth for the US is pretty bad.

More stats here:

https://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com/

[Jeffret]

More stats here:

https://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com/

"the Church reported a significant slowdown in membership growth in the United States during 2017 as church membership increased by only 0.75% - the lowest annual membership growth rate for the Church in the United States in perhaps as long as a century. The Church in Mexico also reported the slowest membership growth in 35 years of a mere 1.30% during 2017."

[Red Ryder]

All this talk of declining growth means that Satan either stopped smoking or taking a lunch break.

Or porn?