Believe in basic Christianity

[Mackman]

Hi: I don't believe much in the church anymore but I still believe in the Christian basics . I think Joseph was a complete fraud as others have stated on this board . I have tried the nuanced view but found that only works for a while. Can a person hang on in the church to satisfy his TBM spouse while only believing his own view of Christianity ? What would Jesus and our father in heaven think about that ? Any insights would be appreciated. Does anyone think it would be held against me knowing the church is false but keeping my membership for family but still believing in Christ ?

[redjay]

1) Yes you can hang on/attend church to satisfy your spouse, plenty of board members here and other places, do so. Some are Sunday mormons and do not keep all of the mormon commandments; others are card carrying, WoW keeping, tithing paying attendees.

2) My best guess, as for what HF and JC would think about attending and not believing, is that they would look at your motivation and results. If you are motivated by love and unity in your family, then they would approve; however, you might at some point think that mormonism can be harmful for your family (for example its emphasis on purity), then you might feel the right thing to do is to put distance between yourself and the church. Basically if you are trying to do the right thing, then my thoughts are God will respect that.

3) Take it all very slow. I was a TBM for over 20 years, with everything that involves, my shelf crashed about 3 years ago. Only had the sit down discussion with the kids this year. Because that was right for me and my family. I still attend, while drinking coffee during the week.

You do this on your own terms, in your own time. However, the general advice is to try and be transparent with your TBM spouse, while respecting their boundaries - I've always taken the approach, not to push anything on my TBM spouse.

[oliver_denom]

Hi: I don't believe much in the church anymore but I still believe in the Christian basics . I think Joseph was a complete fraud as others have stated on this board . I have tried the nuanced view but found that only works for a while. Can a person hang on in the church to satisfy his TBM spouse while only believing his own view of Christianity ? What would Jesus and our father in heaven think about that ? Any insights would be appreciated. Does anyone think it would be held against me knowing the church is false but keeping my membership for family but still believing in Christ ?

You're asking questions that can't be answered, because they would require some sort of authoritative response, and you don't believe in that anymore...not really. Maybe you could fast and pray then come to some sort of resolution with God, but you'll still be left to wonder thereafter whether or not it was actually HIM, or if it was you. All paths lead back to an internal struggle that only you can resolve. There's no avoiding that or getting away unscathed.

The answer to most of these questions really center on knowing what it is you want or need out of the hear and now. If you're hung up on some sort of afterlife, then let it go. God is either merciful and just in which case you'll find peace, or he's an intolerable prick who can't be pleased anyway. There's not much middle ground when dealing with gods. They prefer to deal in absolutes, it's kind of their thing. The point is that if any sort of afterlife, or judgment based on what we do while alive, were to mean anything then it would have to be based on what we actually feel, think, and do, not based on the acts of self interested men who lick the boots of heaven for fear of what will happen if they don't. Who are you really? And what do you really want? Is it not better to be judged based on the person you are than the person you've pretended to be? Would such a deception even work under the eyes of a god?

I can't speak to life after death, I've never experienced it.

But when it comes to life, family, and friends, then I can say with confidence that what matters most is that you dig deep and love them completely. You'll never regret anything that you do out of love and kindness, even if you are occasionally burned. Just follow your gut and do your best to be patient, good and kind. Focus on that and you'll be fine. Forget the rest.

[Corsair]

I am one of those people who holds a current temple recommend and attends weekly with my wife. I'm not a believer and a careful review of all of the temple recommend questions would not not produce the desired answers. Seriously, I'm waiting for the spirit of discernment to figure that out. I actually serve as the YM Secretary and on the Scout Committee as the Advancement Chair. I expect to have to confront the bishop one of these days, especially if he were to call me to something like "ward mission leader". The YM leader is a good friend of mine who does not yet realize what a heretic he has invited to work with the young men in the ward.

I'm with you on Christian basics. I think I could argue for both sides of the debate on whether or not the LDS church can be classified as Christian. I suspect that orthodox LDS believers would be bothered by my reasoning for either point of view. Still, the idea and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth remain quite appealing and I am happy to find common ground with most theists.

The central point of my continuing attendance at church is simple: I love my wife more than I am annoyed with the church. This is not a conclusion that everyone in a faith transition can do. If any person is being hurt by the church or church attendance, they should feel free to leave. There is no legal or moral justification needed to leave a church. On the contrary, the LDS church is supposed to have the burden of proof about why anyone should feel obligated to remain with them.

Three hours of church really blows, but I like the people in my ward. I keep my mouth shut a lot and simply enjoy my intellectual freedom. Frankly, the rest of Sunday turns into Second Saturday after I church attendance with my wife. She and I have reached a peaceful detente realizing that each side of this marriage partnership has some profound disagreements with the theology of the other partner.

I will attend the temple if asked nicely, but I don't seek it out. I don't pay tithing and I don't home teach. Coffee is delicious, but I don't bring it home. The church has turned me into a liar with their passive aggressive ways of teaching obedience, conformity, and keeping up appearances. I actually still give priesthood blessings to my wife and I simply feel free to give a heartfelt bit of advice to her in a ritualized setting. I never ask for a blessing for myself. My children are at various natural stages of knowing my belief status. I live pretty happily with my family.

[Mackman]

Thanks Corsair you and I see things pretty much the same but I have struggled in recent years and I really like your statement that you love your wife more than the church annoyes you. Its just hard to be in church and in your own mind disagreeing with almost all of what is taught.

[slavereeno]

I love my wife more than I am annoyed with the church.

This, for me as well. So you know I love my wife A LOT!

[IT_Veteran]

I love my wife more than I am annoyed with the church.

This, for me as well. So you know I love my wife A LOT!

I understand the sentiment, but I think it sends a message that those of us that can't attend simply don't love our spouses enough. I know that's not the intent, but I think it's important to point out the unintended message. I am one of those people. I love my wife more than anything. However, I couldn't keep pretending because the cog dis was doing real harm to me. I never have had any problems with depression or suicidal thoughts until I went through my faith crisis. It was really unhealthy for me to continue in that. I'm glad she understood, but it had nothing to do with how much I love her.

[slavereeno]

I understand the sentiment, but I think it sends a message that those of us that can't attend simply don't love our spouses enough. I know that's not the intent, but I think it's important to point out the unintended message.

I sort of meant that as a tongue-in-cheek jest about how much i am annoyed at the church, but your point is valid. Humor fail. I certainly didn't mean to make light of others genuine pain or situation, or pass judgement. Of course every situation is different and every relationship is different. You have been fortunate that your wife has been supportive, and that may have made it easier for you to make the break you did. Perhaps the church doesn't bother me as much as I think. I certainly can't make that kind of judgement about someone else. The initial disclosure of my unorthodoxy took a heavy toll on my relationship, I wondered if I pushed harder if it would have survived.

[IT_Veteran]

I understand the sentiment, but I think it sends a message that those of us that can't attend simply don't love our spouses enough. I know that's not the intent, but I think it's important to point out the unintended message.

I sort of meant that as a tongue-in-cheek jest about how much i am annoyed at the church, but your point is valid. Humor fail. I certainly didn't mean to make light of others genuine pain or situation, or pass judgement. Of course every situation is different and every relationship is different. You have been fortunate that your wife has been supportive, and that may have made it easier for you to make the break you did. Perhaps the church doesn't bother me as much as I think. I certainly can't make that kind of judgement about someone else. The initial disclosure of my unorthodoxy took a heavy toll on my relationship, I wondered if I pushed harder if it would have survived.

Sorry, I didn't mean to place blame on you either, as I think your experience is just as valid as mine. I didn't pick up on the humor of it, that's partly my fault. I would just want to make sure that somebody that's in that pain right now doesn't read that and think they can't talk about the church with their spouse or refuse to go. Just wanted to make sure that the opposite view was available too!

I genuinely appreciate the discussions we have on this board.

[slavereeno]

I didn't pick up on the humor of it

I get that a lot...

Just wanted to make sure that the opposite view was available too!

+1


The other huge variable we need to remember is to what degree the church has messed with our heads and the heads of our loved ones. I think this is what disturbs me the most about continuing to drag my kids to church every week, is that the church does mess with heads.

[IT_Veteran]

I think this is what disturbs me the most about continuing to drag my kids to church every week, is that the church does mess with heads.

Same here. It's why I'm just a little glad when my kids decide to stay home with me instead of go with DW. She had a hard time this week because not only did my newly announced exmo teenager stay home, but so did the middle kiddo. My DW ended up going with just the 3yo, on the same day she was released from both of her callings (at her request). Now that she's been released, she's sad that she isn't in primary anymore. With the understanding she has of the issues since my disaffection, I think she's a little worried about what she might hear in gospel doctrine and RS that she knows is incorrect. She's in a pretty tough spot right now and I think it's messing with her head as well.

[slavereeno]

With the understanding she has of the issues since my disaffection, I think she's a little worried about what she might hear in gospel doctrine and RS that she knows is incorrect. She's in a pretty tough spot right now and I think it's messing with her head as well.

I have experienced this too, DW has complained that after I disclosed some of my issues with her that she has started to scrutinize things said in church and that bugs her, she envies those who can just go and zone out to Mormon goodness. (I shouldn't speak for her - and I am heavily paraphrasing)

[Reuben]

With the understanding she has of the issues since my disaffection, I think she's a little worried about what she might hear in gospel doctrine and RS that she knows is incorrect. She's in a pretty tough spot right now and I think it's messing with her head as well.

I have experienced this too, DW has complained that after I disclosed some of my issues with her that she has started to scrutinize things said in church and that bugs her, she envies those who can just go and zone out to Mormon goodness. (I shouldn't speak for her - and I am heavily paraphrasing)

My wife and I have a weird version of this going on. When I attend church with her, she worries about what people say that I might get upset by. It's actually easier for her now that I'm not attending.

Regarding basic Christianity: I love it, but I don't believe it. From my recent studies of human behavior, I've decided that enough people following the example and words of Jesus would basically cure the greatest ills of society. I'm determined to do it, but that puts me in a tricky position. One of the main ingredients in the cure is being willing to call out those in power on their bullshit and abuse.

[Mad Jax]

The answer to most of these questions really center on knowing what it is you want or need out of the hear and now. If you're hung up on some sort of afterlife, then let it go. God is either merciful and just in which case you'll find peace, or he's an intolerable prick who can't be pleased anyway. There's not much middle ground when dealing with gods. They prefer to deal in absolutes, it's kind of their thing. The point is that if any sort of afterlife, or judgment based on what we do while alive, were to mean anything then it would have to be based on what we actually feel, think, and do, not based on the acts of self interested men who lick the boots of heaven for fear of what will happen if they don't. Who are you really? And what do you really want? Is it not better to be judged based on the person you are than the person you've pretended to be? Would such a deception even work under the eyes of a god?

This paragraph is pure verbal Bushido. Bullseye!