Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms

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consiglieri
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Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms

Post by consiglieri » Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:54 pm

Researching GC for RFM podcast.

Came upon Elder Dale G. Renlund's talk at the end of Saturday Afternoon session. He opens by mentioning a public confrontation between Orson Pratt and Parley Pratt in 1846, which they eventually healed after years of acrimony.

Here are Elder Renlund's words:
Family relationships can be some of the most rewarding yet challenging experiences we encounter. Many of us have faced a fracture of some sort within our families. Such a fracture developed between two heroes of the Restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ in these latter days. Parley and Orson Pratt were brothers, early converts, and ordained Apostles. Each faced a trial of faith but came through with an unshakable testimony. Both sacrificed and contributed greatly for the cause of truth.

During the Nauvoo era, their relationship became strained, culminating in a heated, public confrontation in 1846. A deep and prolonged rift developed.
My first thought was to wonder what on earth he was talking about.

I had never heard this story before.

My second thought was what on earth could have been the cause of this rift between the Pratt brothers.

A little research shed some light.
“In January 1846, Parley and Orson Pratt publicly argued in the newly completed Nauvoo temple over accusations Parley had made against Orson’s wife, Sarah. Orson and Sarah had quarreled with church officials ever since Joseph Smith reportedly approached Sarah in 1842, while Orson was in England, and a proposal of plural marriage. Shortly before Parley’s and Orson’s dispute, Sarah had informed Mary Ann of Belinda’s and Parley’s relationship. Mary Ann confronted Belinda and, after learning the truth, left Parley. They formally divorced seven years later.

“In the temple Parley accused Sarah of ‘ruining and breaking up his family,’ as well as of being an apostate. Parley’s and Orson’s argument became so intense that Orson voted (?) out of the temple. The next day Orson wrote to Brigham Young, president of the Twelve, defending his attack on Parley. He denied responsibility for Mary Ann’s knowledge of Parley’s polygamous marriages and told Young he was willing to repent of anything that would keep him out of good standing. But, he declared, Parley was now his ‘avowed enemy.’ The two brothers did not reconcile unto seven years later in 1853.” The Essentials of Parley P. Pratt, Signature Books, Salt Lake City, 1990, xii.

http://jared.pratt-family.org/parley_hi ... uvoo4.html
While I appreciate learning this new story from church history, I am left to wonder why on earth Elder Renlund felt the need to "go there."

It would seem he knows the backdrop of this story, or why would he have mentioned it in the first place?

And if he knew the backdrop, why is he taking the chance that members will research it and find out for themselves what the rift was about?

Thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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moksha
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Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms

Post by moksha » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:53 pm

I looked in the Wikipedia and found this mention about Sarah Pratt, Orson's wife.
"Bennett included a claim that Sarah Pratt had virtuously rejected Joseph Smith's efforts to make her a spiritual wife while Orson Pratt was in Europe."
Looks like the Church then loaded up both barrels to smear Sarah. I imagine Parley was somewhat influenced by this smear campaign. Surprised Orson was not enraged by Joseph putting the moves on Sarah when Orson was sent on a mission to England, or maybe he was enraged but suppressed it for fear of being shot by the official assassin Orin Porter Rockwell.

Later on, Parley was killed by a jealous husband who had his wife stolen by Parley. Not to worry, the Church had its vengeance for Parley's murder by slaughtering a wagon train bound for California.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Cupcake
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Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms

Post by Cupcake » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:25 pm

More inoculation by dropping hints of polyandry?

Most members won't do a search for background on the story. I wouldn't have. I was all about focusing on the spiritual principals and doctrines. A story's greatest purpose is to communicate spiritual truths. Even though Renlund doesn't go into details, he does makes clear that Pratt brothers became deeply divided and that a resolution seemed hopeless.
During the Nauvoo era, their relationship became strained, culminating in a heated, public confrontation in 1846. A deep and prolonged rift developed. Parley initially wrote to Orson to resolve the rift, but Orson did not reply. Parley gave up, feeling that correspondence was over forever, unless initiated by Orson.
However, family history work comes in to save the day. Huzzah! Tears of joy are shed and their relationship is repaired. Family history and temple work are not only a blessing for the dead. It is a blessing for the living too!

The power of family history work is made to look so more spectacular if the rift in the family is greater. How powerful must family history be to restore a relationship that seemed hopeless to Parley? At least that's how I could see some believers looking at the messy history behind the story if they were to know about it.

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slavereeno
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Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms

Post by slavereeno » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:56 pm

Well, seems like you can't take two steps in the minefield of early church history with loosing a limb. I think they know the vast vast majority of members aren't doing squat for historical research.

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Palerider
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Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms

Post by Palerider » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:18 pm

Isn't this nearly the same as Elder Faust telling the story of Thomas B. Marsh and the milk strippings?

There was much more to that incident than Faust let on. But I doubt many members made the effort to research it. Easier to just take your leader's word for it that he's telling the true version of the story. Aren't members programmed to think that way? It allows one to be lazy.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

consiglieri
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Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms

Post by consiglieri » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:01 am

moksha wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:53 pm
I looked in the Wikipedia and found this mention about Sarah Pratt, Orson's wife.
"Bennett included a claim that Sarah Pratt had virtuously rejected Joseph Smith's efforts to make her a spiritual wife while Orson Pratt was in Europe."
Looks like the Church then loaded up both barrels to smear Sarah. I imagine Parley was somewhat influenced by this smear campaign. Surprised Orson was not enraged by Joseph putting the moves on Sarah when Orson was sent on a mission to England, or maybe he was enraged but suppressed it for fear of being shot by the official assassin Orin Porter Rockwell.

Later on, Parley was killed by a jealous husband who had his wife stolen by Parley. Not to worry, the Church had its vengeance for Parley's murder by slaughtering a wagon train bound for California.
Hi, Moksha!

When Orson Pratt returned from his mission to England 1n 1842, his wife told him about what Joseph asked her to do. Orson believed his wife. He was extremely upset and left a suicide note and went down to the Mississippi River. Finding the note, many people went out looking for him, and eventually he was located.

Joseph Smith denied Sarah's allegation and Orson's membership was put on the line based on whether he sided with his wife against Joseph, or with Joseph against his wife.

Orson sided with his wife, at least temporarily, and as a result was excommunicated.

After about half a year, Orson repented and was rebaptized and subsequently restored to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

It was this hiatus from the Twelve that would subsequently lose Orson the chance to become president when not long before his death, Brigham Young changed the rules to make the church president the longest continuously serving apostle.

consiglieri
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Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms

Post by consiglieri » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:02 am

slavereeno wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:56 pm
Well, seems like you can't take two steps in the minefield of early church history with loosing a limb. I
LOVE THIS LINE!!!

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slavereeno
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Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms

Post by slavereeno » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:03 am

Palerider wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:18 pm
Isn't this nearly the same as Elder Faust telling the story of Thomas B. Marsh and the milk strippings?

There was much more to that incident than Faust let on. But I doubt many members made the effort to research it. Easier to just take your leader's word for it that he's telling the true version of the story. Aren't members programmed to think that way? It allows one to be lazy.
True this, I heard this story at least a half a dozen times retold in seminary and such, I had always taken it at face value. In fact I still haven't dug any deeper into it. If you were to ask me about the milk strippings story, the only thing in my memory is that Thomas B Marsh was a greedy, selfish, disobedient, unrepentant apostate, who's gunna roast in hell over a half a cup of cream!

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms

Post by Rob4Hope » Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:17 am

Yep, this is another one where I learn something I had no idea even existed.

The whole deal with polyandry is a big black hole for the church.

The way the church spins lies astonishes me.

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alas
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Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms

Post by alas » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:45 am

slavereeno wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:03 am
Palerider wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:18 pm
Isn't this nearly the same as Elder Faust telling the story of Thomas B. Marsh and the milk strippings?

There was much more to that incident than Faust let on. But I doubt many members made the effort to research it. Easier to just take your leader's word for it that he's telling the true version of the story. Aren't members programmed to think that way? It allows one to be lazy.
True this, I heard this story at least a half a dozen times retold in seminary and such, I had always taken it at face value. In fact I still haven't dug any deeper into it. If you were to ask me about the milk strippings story, the only thing in my memory is that Thomas B Marsh was a greedy, selfish, disobedient, unrepentant apostate, who's gunna roast in hell over a half a cup of cream!
Even if we were to believe the milk strippings story, it is not about the milk or cream. It is about believing one's wife and being more loyal to her than to the church, similar to Orson Pratt's problem. When two women disagreed about the milk strippings, one accusing the other of taking cream off her milk before combining it for a joint cheese project, the church elders sided against Mrs Marsh. She insisted she was innocent and her husband believed her. Now even looking closer at the story, what if the elders who agreed with the accusation against Mrs Marsh were dead wrong? Is him believing his wife a sin? Or is it the honest respectable thing to do? His "sin" was that his loyality to his wife was greater than his loyality to the church and the church has no tolerance for that.

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Hagoth
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Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms

Post by Hagoth » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:48 pm

alas wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:45 am
His "sin" was that his loyality to his wife was greater than his loyality to the church and the church has no tolerance for that.
Priesthood uber alles.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Quinnster
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Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms

Post by Quinnster » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:49 am

I am helping my son plan a lesson/discussion on this talk by Elder Renlund and I suggested he find the story behind the reason for the heated debate that caused the rift, thinking it would help make the discussion more interesting. I'm thinking that would really make it more interesting but probably a bad idea. :lol: Or, is it? Maybe these are the things that need to be at least mentioned in passing some times? I'm torn. I don't want to become part of the whitewashing brigade.

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Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms

Post by crossmyheart » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:50 am

Quinnster wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:49 am
I am helping my son plan a lesson/discussion on this talk by Elder Renlund and I suggested he find the story behind the reason for the heated debate that caused the rift, thinking it would help make the discussion more interesting. I'm thinking that would really make it more interesting but probably a bad idea. :lol: Or, is it? Maybe these are the things that need to be at least mentioned in passing some times? I'm torn. I don't want to become part of the whitewashing brigade.
That would actually be a lesson I would love to stay for, instead of sitting in the car or going to starbucks/Target!

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Re: Elder Renlund Opens Can of General Conference Worms

Post by nibbler » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:06 am

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