The NOM Tribe

[RubinHighlander]

For the past couple of years I've considered myself evolved out of tribalism. Several years ago I left the Republican party and have since been unable to find a party that represents my views. Three years ago I left Mormonism and was happy to escape that tribalism. I spent 20 years in the military (Reserves and National Guard) and retired from that a couple decades ago. My nationalistic attitude fades as I get older.

So I considered myself tribeless, but after listening the Radio West podcast today...

http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/political-tribes

Now I'm thinking I am still tribalistic to a degree. I identify with friends and family that have left Mormonism, including visiting and participating here on NOM. It's not like we go out and hunt wild beasts together, but I do enjoy some validation from others as to my views and feelings about the world and especially the many years I dedicated to the Mormon cult.

Another reason I was thinking I was tribeless is because I really enjoy being alone. I love wandering out into the west deserts of Utah and have spent days in the wilderness by myself. When driving, I enjoy it when I'm the only one on the road, which I've experienced many times because I'm a crazy ass photography who get's up in the wee AM hours of the night to find dark skies or capture astrological events. I've been on the freeway at 4am and witnessed three other cars grouped together (all in the left lane) traveling together; it made me wonder about their need to feel like they were not alone.

There's neurological science behind humanizing and dehumanizing, supporting the persistence of our tribalistic evolution. Now at least this NOM group seems much more open and less negative than say an ExMoRedit and many other sites. While we commiserate about our TBM brothers and sisters, we can also empathize with them because most of us have been there and done that.

I think understanding tribalism is a key to understanding the challenge we have getting TBMs to empathize or agree with anything we have to say. Not only are we outside the tribe and their world view filters, but we are also traitors to the tribe. I think that adds more bias to many TBMs views of NOMs and NoMOs.

Do you feel like you have an unconscious and even conscious NOM bias? Beside NOM, have you found another tribe? I guess my other tribe besides NOM would be nature; I've easily filled the gap of Mormonism with much better options.

[Ghost]

I find that I still fit in with Mormons just fine, though perhaps less and less with Mormonism. For example, when I go to church, I still feel comfortable as part of the group. But when I happen to attend a meeting or class, I'm reminded of how far I've drifted and how little I can relate to even the most basic teachings anymore. I haven't let go of Mormonism as a "tribe," and don't feel the need to, but my reasons for staying associated have changed significantly. Where it was once because of truth, it is now more because of the sense of identity, community, and tradition.

But that said, I identify more in the abstract with NOMs than with orthodox Mormons or ex-Mormons. Oddly enough, neither orthodox Mormons nor ex-Mormons typically seem to have anything positive to say about the NOM approach. I guess we (and I suppose I reveal my own bias in using the word we) are rejected to some extent by both groups in being lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot.

But that said, I also often prefer to be alone than associate with anyone.

[moksha]

Oddly enough, neither orthodox Mormons nor ex-Mormons typically seem to have anything positive to say about the NOM approach.

The idea of back roads can be annoying to those who insist on, "It's my way or the highway".

I think the idea that no person is an island it true. Whether we have a need to associate with others or not, it is beneficial to us to have some association. Of course, it is probably unavoidable as well, since all the good caves are already taken.

Rubin, you can draw a line to keep those so and so's out when you like and draw a circle when you want to include them.

[wtfluff]

The human race likely wouldn't have survived without tribalism, so...

(Random fluffy thoughts.)

[Reuben]

I think it's helpful and important to distinguish between tribal and tribalist for the same reason that it's helpful and important to distinguish between racial and racist.

We're racial by default - we can't help having a race. But when you think your race is superior to others, build a racial narrative around the inferiority of other races, define yourself by the races you fear and hate... you're a racist.

We're tribal by default, too. If there are humans out there who don't feel an ache to belong to at least one tribe, and don't fall into depression when they don't, they're mutants. But when you think your tribe is superior to others, build a tribal narrative around the inferiority of other tribes, define yourself by the tribes you fear and hate... you're a tribalist.

Really, racism is just a special case of tribalism.

An interesting way to look at this is through the lens of psychology. The definition of collective narcissism overlaps tribalism very well, and has been characterized precisely and studied for correlation with other traits such as individual narcissism. Its main characteristics are strong identification with the given group, and strong but unstable belief in the group's superiority.

[RubinHighlander]

The human race likely wouldn't have survived without tribalism, so...

(Random fluffy thoughts.)

Agreed.

There's still the mystery of why the Neanderthals died out and Home sapiens took over. Neanderthals were intelligent, made tools and the oldest cave drawings we've found so far (70k years ago). We even mixed it up and got busy with them, as evidenced by the small percentages of their DNA we carry today. But we are here and they are not. There's many theories - maybe we killed them, ate them or simply out bred them as there seems to be evidence they were never nearly as numerous as humans. Tribalism was a big factor in the foundation of human success. Then came language, industrialism and capitalism as the foundation of the rapid technological world we have now. If we can survive and evolve past tribalism and capitalism to make an altruistic society without scarcity before we destroy the planet, that will be pretty cool. Otherwise, we are likely to cause our own mass extinction. Or the silicon based life we create will remove us from the equation, like we have done to so many other species.

[Hagoth]

I think one of the biggest ways the world is changing is that today we have the capability of belonging to more that one tribe at a time and our attachment to those tribes is highly variable. We can hop from tribe to tribe without leaving our seat, and our degree of allegiance to those tribes can ebb and flow from day to day.

[Reuben]

I think one of the biggest ways the world is changing is that today we have the capability of belonging to more that one tribe at a time and our attachment to those tribes is highly variable. We can hop from tribe to tribe without leaving our seat, and our degree of allegiance to those tribes can ebb and flow from day to day.

Yes, this. It's been happening for a while with increased mobility and communication, and the Internet dialed it up to 11. Belonging is now a buyer's market, and religions have been slow to figure that out. They'll continue to bleed members until they do, and stop putting the burden of trust and loyalty almost entirely on their members.

Whether this ends up being good or bad for our survival remains to be seen. It definitely helps free us from authoritarianism. But tribalism? I have no idea.

[1smartdodog]

I have no problem hanging around with Mormons. I just find I have to ignore the religion part of the tribe.

[RubinHighlander]

I have no problem hanging around with Mormons. I just find I have to ignore the religion part of the tribe.

I have no problem hanging with them at my work and other mixed social situations because they act normal and there's no weirdness. I think that's because it's a diverse and respectful place. But in their churches and forums where they are drinking the koolaid...I'm glad I'm not subjected to that part anymore.

[moksha]

There's still the mystery of why the Neanderthals died out and Home sapiens took over. Neanderthals were intelligent, made tools and the oldest cave drawings we've found so far (70k years ago).

You've probably heard this already in Sunday School, but there is always the possibility that God took them up to the City of Enoch to help with propulsion engineering or to Kolob to serve as the administrative staff.

[Hagoth]

I have no problem hanging around with Mormons. I just find I have to ignore the religion part of the tribe.

Have you tried hanging around them while drinking a beer?

[Reuben]

I have no problem hanging around with Mormons. I just find I have to ignore the religion part of the tribe.

Have you tried hanging around them while drinking a beer?

I've heard this is especially effective at church.

[RubinHighlander]

I have no problem hanging around with Mormons. I just find I have to ignore the religion part of the tribe.

Have you tried hanging around them while drinking a beer?

I've heard this is especially effective at church.

Reminds me of a funny event from last year. Swim meets can be long and arduous for parents, like 3-4 hours in a hot humid room on hard bleachers with lots of noise and screaming, waiting to see your kid swim 3-4 events. So a friend of mine picked up some herbal gummies on his trip to CO and I did partake. This certainly made the swim meet experience more tolerable. So I'm pretty buzzed when up walks the YW presidency, there supporting one of their flock. DW and I had been out for about a year, so the situation was already a bit uncomfortable; not for me of course because I was feeling just fine. I'm sure the increase in the stupid dad humor quotient didn't help. Honestly I can't remember how the short conversation went and I don't really care. Bottom line is that beer and other things can really help your levels of toleration, but it's pretty one side (thanks captain obvious).