Was The Late War *really* heavily used for the BoM? Apologists really muddy the water here...

[jfro18]

So when I found the CES letter it was the first time I ever heard of the Late War. Yes, it's been out there forever, but I never looked for "anti-Mormon" (critical) info until recently.

I talked to my wife about this and she immediately went to FAIR for their response, which is at https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Book ... e_Late_War

Their response makes some very solid points with regards to the picture we've all seen that takes groups of phrases from Late War and compares to Book of Mormon, but they are spread out over verses so when you look at the entire passages the comparison seems dull to me.

On the other hand, The Late War (to me) shows how easy it would be to write a book in biblical style that talks about how the Native Americans were actually the lost tribes, etc, etc. In addition, FAIR is **amazingly** good at gaslighting issues, so you read about a claim and by the end they are talking about something different or ignoring legit claims to just focus on areas they can score points.

Just curious what everyone here thinks with regards to how legit a criticism it is to say the Late War was heavily used in the BoM. That was one area my wife really clung too in order to say the CES Letter (and Letter For My Wife) were just twisting everything... I wish I had not focused on that area at all in hindsight.

[oliver_denom]

If someone wants to believe that the Book of Mormon is an ancient text translated into English from ancient golden plates, then FAIR Mormon can create enough doubt in scientific, archeological, historical, linguistic, and literary scholarship to allow for that belief. It's not difficult to create a "what if scenario", hence groups of people who believe the moon landing was faked, the earth is flat, and global warming is a hoax.

The CES letter is not a work of academic scholarship, which will forever make it an easy target for Mormon academics. Sure, it makes a number of good points and observations, but it's not rigorous enough as to make it impervious to valid criticism. And if someone has rejected reason to the point where Smith reading words from a stone in his hat is more plausible than the explanation that he made it up, then you're unlikely to get very far convincing them otherwise. For every proof you deliver, they'll have a way to side step.

For example, there is zero doubt that Smith copied the King James bible along with all its translation errors. That copying is throughout the work, and when he's not copying verbatim, he's paraphrasing or retelling a biblical story in his own words. That's a huge piece of evidence, but with a little hand waving, it's first dismissed by the book's self reference to the brass plates, and then is turned into evidence in favor by claiming that "The spirit" often repeats itself. When cornered they'll say that literal things are figurative, or that Smith said horse but meant tapir. You can't pin someone down who isn't bound by rules of evidence. Just ask anyone defending their pet star wars theories even after the movies contradict them. There's always a way when working with fiction.

Maybe Smith used The Late War and maybe he didn't. Who really knows? That's never been a key element to proving the Book of Mormon to be a 19th century text. Besides common sense, just about every line of empirical study brings you back to the same conclusion, unless you choose to ignore it, and if you do, then FAIR can help make you feel better about that decision.

[jfro18]

Well said.

I'm quickly beginning to understand that people would rather believe FAIR than to actually examine what is right in front of their faces. I was one of the people who until just recently never even wanted to seek out more info, and I haven't believed in the church in a long time.

So I get it, but man is it frustrating.

The Late War stuff is interesting to me because (in my opinion) the King James Bible stuff is ***way*** more damaging than the Late War is. I mean if you can put incorrect translations into the Book of Mormon that were not even available to Lehi... how do you possibly pretend that the rest is true? And yet here we all are.

[slavereeno]

I thought the point of the late war connection was to show that

A) writing in the biblical style was something that people did without being inspired directly through a rock in a hat, ergo you cannot claim that the scriptural sound of the BoM is "proof" of its inspired origins.

B) either:
It is probable that the author of the BoM was influenced by such works
- OR -
You have to forfeit other coincidences like chiasmus as "proof" of Hebraic writings.

[Red Ryder]

I agree with Oliver.

The Late War isn't a smoking gun.

It's just another domino lined up that demonstrates the possibility that Joseph Smith made the whole thing up. What really hit home for me was the idea that you could take the Book of Mormon and dump it into a simple high school plagerism website and see that it wouldnt pass the most basic idea that other sources could influence the outcome.

It's either what it claims to be or it's not. Line up the dominos and start knocking them over and see what happens. Mormonism isn't what it claims to be.

[2bizE]

I agree also that the Late War is not a smoking gun. However, when you combine additional facts it adds more to it. For example,
1) BYU scholars now provide evidence that the JS inspired translation of the Bible was actually an inspiration to JS to copy from Adam Clarkes Bible Commentary. In other words, it was plagiarized.
2) Book of Abraham was not a translation from papyrus.
3) BH Roberts. B. H. Roberts, GA & church historian, in 1930: “If JS’s translation of the Egyptian parchment could be discredited, and proven false, then doubt would be thrown also upon the genuineness of his translation of the BoM, and thus all his pretensions as a translator would be exposed and come to naught". The quote is from B. H. Roberts, Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Salt Lake City: Deseret News, 1930), 2:138.

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-cont ... N03_87.pdf

4) Here is a list of questions to ask and follow on your journey. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... embers_of/

[mooseman]

To me, the value of the "The late war" isnt as a source-its as a debunk to the idea the BOM contains hidden clues to being ancient though hebrewisms or chasimas or whatever....TLW has all of them and is very much 19th century new england in its orgin.

Its not a slam dunk that JS plagiarized the BOM...its a solid block of a desperation 3 or hail mary by apologist

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

The late war may not be primary source material, but like the others have said, it sure demonstrates hebraisms were popular writing in the era. Want another fun one that I found? Check out this 1824 sermon in hopkinsian magazine about "probationary state". You'll note that the term is not found in any other hebrew or greek scripture, just the BOM and the writings of Jonathan Edwards and his later fan club, the Hopkinsians.

https://books.google.com/books?id=7dkOA ... te&f=false

[asa]

I dont know many of you have actually read the Late War and then compared it and its alleged similarites to the B of M . I have. I agree with the above posters. The only similarities are about what you would expect from two books ,both written in early modern English ( ie language current in early 17th century England) which contain extensive material on warfare in America. For the less informed the Late War is about the War of 1812 written in the style of the KJV of the Bible. Not only is there no smoking gun there are at most sophmoric similaries that prove nothing anout the B of M . I can come up with a dozen different and better arguments against the historicity of the B of M than those based upon the Late War and it happens I beleive in its historicity.

[Hagoth]

Critics of the BoM do both themselves and Joseph Smith a disservice when they claim that the BoM is plagiarized from the Late War. Same with View of the Hebrews. Plagiarism of The View of the Hebrews is easily debunked because the BoM doesn't quote directly from it. The truth is that the VotH and the BoM, and Spaulding, for that matter, were each telling their version of the common story that pretty much everyone believed at the time. Today we think the BoM narrative was unique and unexpected, but to the people at the time it was just another version of the same old story.

The Book of Abraham, on the other hand, is about as much as a smoking gun as you could ask for, in my opinion. It is a wonderful litmus test to separate those who will change their beliefs based on evidence and those who choose to continue to believe the same, regardless of evidence.

[moksha]

Here is an apologetic that FAIRMormon may not have used.

God inspired the writing of The Late War as a means of paving the way for the coming of Joseph Smith in the same way that he inspired Emanuel Swedenborg, Luman Walters, and the Constitution of the United States.

[Hagoth]

Here is an apologetic that FAIRMormon may not have used.

God inspired the writing of The Late War as a means of paving the way for the coming of Joseph Smith in the same way that he inspired Emanuel Swedenborg, Luman Walters, and the Constitution of the United States.

That is beautiful, Moksha. And don't forget that the preface to the KJV was also inspired by God, since the BoM also quotes from it. I am particularly moved by the way God inspired Adam Clarke to create an inspired translation of the Bible to pave the way for Joseph Smith to write the same inspired translation. And the way God said certain things in the Book of Commandments to pave the way for Joseph changing those revelations in the D&C version. Mysterious ways indeed.

[hiding in plain sight]

Clearly JS didn't just sit down and start copying out of the late war straight into the book of mormon. Nor did he do a book report on the structure of the late war and then rewrite it into the book of mormon.

But it is highly strange that language similarities do show up.

http://wordtree.org/thelatewar/

Just like language similarities show up from 19th century christian sermons.

https://mormonbandwagon.com/bwv549/book ... s-thought/

And just like there are direct quotes and similar thought progression to the KJV of the Bible.



People love to ask the question, "How could Joseph, an uneducated farm boy have written the Book of Mormon?"

I love to ask in reply, "How could Mormon a 4th century mesoamerican have written the book of mormon, which has similar language to books written in the 19th century, similar language to 19th century christian theologians which don't show up in the bible, and exact and similar language to bible scriptures that would not have been found in the brass plates?"

It is far easier for Joseph to have written it and it would have been for Mormon.

[Rob4Hope]

Here is an apologetic that FAIRMormon may not have used.

God inspired the writing of The Late War as a means of paving the way for the coming of Joseph Smith in the same way that he inspired Emanuel Swedenborg, Luman Walters, and the Constitution of the United States.

That is beautiful, Moksha. And don't forget that the preface to the KJV was also inspired by God, since the BoM also quotes from it. I am particularly moved by the way God inspired Adam Clarke to create an inspired translation of the Bible to pave the way for Joseph Smith to write the same inspired translation. And the way God said certain things in the Book of Commandments to pave the way for Joseph changing those revelations in the D&C version. Mysterious ways indeed.

Why stop there?

I'm grateful there are witchcraft books, jupiter talismans, astrology and spell incantations like "Holiness to the Lord" that were created by devils--all inspired by God of course--as a way to prepare the young JS to do the prophetic work he did.

[Hagoth]

I love to ask in reply, "How could Mormon a 4th century mesoamerican have written the book of mormon, which has similar language to books written in the 19th century, similar language to 19th century christian theologians which don't show up in the bible, and exact and similar language to bible scriptures that would not have been found in the brass plates?"

I have asked that question of TBMs and the answer is, "Duh, because he was a prophet!"

[hiding in plain sight]

I have asked that question of TBMs and the answer is, "Duh, because he was a prophet!"

The mormon answer to everything when all else fails is just that. "Magic".

[GoodBoy]

He didn't copy text out of "The Late War" he was just obviously heavily influenced by it. Nobody is claiming he copied it.
They are about different subjects. However the style similarities are obvious to anyone with a brain.

[2bizE]

So when I found the CES letter it was the first time I ever heard of the Late War. Yes, it's been out there forever, but I never looked for "anti-Mormon" (critical) info until recently.

I talked to my wife about this and she immediately went to FAIR for their response, which is at https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Book ... e_Late_War

Their response makes some very solid points with regards to the picture we've all seen that takes groups of phrases from Late War and compares to Book of Mormon, but they are spread out over verses so when you look at the entire passages the comparison seems dull to me.

On the other hand, The Late War (to me) shows how easy it would be to write a book in biblical style that talks about how the Native Americans were actually the lost tribes, etc, etc. In addition, FAIR is **amazingly** good at gaslighting issues, so you read about a claim and by the end they are talking about something different or ignoring legit claims to just focus on areas they can score points.

Just curious what everyone here thinks with regards to how legit a criticism it is to say the Late War was heavily used in the BoM. That was one area my wife really clung too in order to say the CES Letter (and Letter For My Wife) were just twisting everything... I wish I had not focused on that area at all in hindsight.

If you haven’t watched this video, it provides tons of information on the late war.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GAGasQ7j_ZI