"Guess who's coming to dinner."

[Gatorbait]

Although I'm an oldster now, I'm not so old that I've forgotten my younger years and a few things that shaped my thinking along the way.

In 1967, when I was a mere lad of eleven, a movie came out with a cast of actors who were arguably the best at the trade at the time, Spencer Tracy, Katharine Hepburn, Sidney Poitier, and several other excellent actors- the movie "Guess who's coming to dinner".

The movie was and still is a classic, and if you've not seen it, I would highly recommend it and not just for the entertainment, but for the message.

Tolerance and its evil twin brother, intolerance, bigotry, respect, dignity, liberalism- all these ideas were woven into this excellent movie so beautifully that if it were a painting, it might be as moving as one of Rembrandt's best. It was that good, at least I thought so and still do.

About the same era, the music group The Rolling Stones released a song with the words to the effect that no matter how white a man's shirt is, he will still be rejected "cause I don't smoke the same cigarettes as you". In other words- be like me, believe as I do, eat what I eat, watch what I watch and so on and so forth- or I will not only reject you- I will ignore you, put my back to you, shun you, belittle you, and either cast you out or kill you.

Religion, in general, has been a platform for intolerance, and we have discussed that many times here in NOM. But let us ask ourselves; how tolerant are we?

Do we shun a fellow NOMer if they don't agree with our views, answer or comment like we do, believe the way we do, or are we completely tolerant and accept each comment as it is meant to be- an opinion. A human person's point of view.

Why am I writing this? I suppose I am writing this, because I feel, at times, that I have been guilty about being intolerant. Not looking here to expand and learn and grow, but to look for those who "smoke the same cigarettes as me", follow their thoughts, agree with them....and ignore those who I don't really agree with. So, there it is, "Get busy livin' or get busy dyin.'" applies to minds as well as our souls.

Otherwise, I'm just like the person who Katherine Hepburn accuses her husband Spencer Tracy of being in the movie, a broken down old liberal, who is not liberal or tolerant at all- but a bigot and an intolerant hypocrite. Time for me to change. Try to be interested in others thoughts and words even if they are not the same as mine. My thoughts to start a Tuesday.

[Jeffret]

For anyone interested the title is 'Guess Who's Coming to Dinner?" Great show. I may have watch it again. It shows how even people who think they're enlightened and tolerant have issues they don't recognize.

[Dravin]

Do we shun a fellow NOMer if they don't agree with our views, answer or comment like we do, believe the way we do, or are we completely tolerant and accept each comment as it is meant to be- an opinion. A human person's point of view.

Not everyone presents their comments as opinions and just because something is an opinion doesn't mean it isn't based on ignorance or that it isn't harmful. Fair enough if we're talking about things that by and large aren't important such as say what breakfast cereal you like the best but, and correct me if I just took your comment in a weird direction you didn't mean it, "It's my opinion!" is not a shield from criticism or disapproval. Additionally criticism and disapproval is not shunning, shunning in the context of a message board is refusing to interact with someone.

I will not be completely tolerant of and accept every possible comment that humanity has to offer because it includes things like racism, pedophilia, and misogyny. Not that I think such positions are advocated here with any sort of frequency on NOM, but there are a people on the internet who like to argue for factually incorrect, or for hurtful and harmful philosophies and then retreat to, "Hey, it is my opinion. You can't tell me I'm wrong." To which I say, "Yes, yes I can." Doesn't mean I have to call you names or harass you in PMs until you leave the board though, one can disagree and disapprove in a civilized manner.

[Hagoth]

Why am I writing this? I suppose I am writing this, because I feel, at times, that I have been guilty about being intolerant. Not looking here to expand and learn and grow, but to look for those who "smoke the same cigarettes as me", follow their thoughts, agree with them....and ignore those who I don't really agree with. So, there it is, "Get busy livin' or get busy dyin.'" applies to minds as well as our souls.

Well, we've been warned about falling into the "tolerance trap." As I have grown older I have observed that in almost every situation we find ourselves in some sort of us and them situation. In my career I noticed that there were multiple overlapping and hierarchical us and them relationships. It's human nature and it's probably how we survived as a species, but it doesn't always fit well in the type of society we think we want to be part of.

I think our uphill battle is that, as Mormons, we were raised in a pretty extreme example of black-and-white-us-and-themism. I fight that kind of thinking every day, and I'm sure all of you do to. One place to really see this in action is the reddit exmormon forum. There's a lot of great stuff there but there are endless examples of people who once could find nothing wrong with the church but are now unable to find anything right with it. When you switch teams your old team becomes your worst enemy.

We do that here too, but to a lesser degree. I know I do it, especially when I'm feeling angry toward the church. It becomes and evil corporation. When I'm less emotional it is more of a clueless corporation. But if you think about it, that's kind of why we're here, so we can have a tribe where we feel safe as outsiders from that other tribe.

Now everybody agree with me, damnit!

[IT_Veteran]

I will not be completely tolerant of and accept every possible comment that humanity has to offer because it includes things like racism, pedophilia, and misogyny. Not that I think such positions are advocated here with any sort of frequency on NOM, but there are a people on the internet who like to argue for factually incorrect, or for hurtful and harmful philosophies and then retreat to, "Hey, it is my opinion. You can't tell me I'm wrong." To which I say, "Yes, yes I can." Doesn't mean I have to call you names or harass you in PMs until you leave the board though, one can disagree and disapprove in a civilized manner.

100%. I'll use an example from the exmo subreddit. There's a very active poster there who was ex'd but believes very much in the doctrine of the church. He hates John Dehlin because of his "gay agenda" and refers to things like LGBTQ issues as disgusting. He also referenced "the undeniable" link between injectable vaccines and autism the other day.As a former TBM that bought into the LGBTQ arguments (never the anti-vax argument), but found my way out, I find that abhorrent. I'll engage with him, but usually only to tell him he's wrong and why. He's claimed he's more mormon than the SP that ex'd him, so I'm not sure why he's there anyway. I certainly don't have to respect his opinions when they're counter to good behavior in society. I've learned to take anything he says with a grain of salt as he sounds ever-crazier. That doesn't mean that I shun him, just that we don't have any/very few common beliefs - though I'm always willing to discuss them.

[wtfluff]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, everyone is not entitled to their "own" facts.

- I don't know who came up with this, or if I repeated it verbatim, but I actually heard it on a podcast this morning.

[Gatorbait]

Goofed up on the title and fixed it. Took me a while to figure out how...(sigh)

Figured someone would catch it and correct it quicker than ol' Bednar can whip out a comb and a mirror and a can of hair spray. You did alright. What the hell, I'm an idiot.

We all seek the truth, but the truth is independent of opinion. It just is. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying that too many times, we just don't let people into our circle if they aren't like us. And I'm not saying everyone does it- I'm saying that we shouldn't do it- and we sort of need to remind ourselves not to do it.

I like the quote which I saw on the bottom of a photo of Robin Williams, and I don't know if he said it or not, but I like it; "Be kind to unkind people, they are the ones who need it most". I'll go along with that. It's easy to like likable people. It's easy to be kind to kind people.

Our job, as the tolerant ones- tolerant in the right frame of mind that is- is to seek those who need help. What does the Bible say? only sick people need a physician. To be really good people, I think, we need to be mutually inclusive and not mutually exclusive. We need to help those who can't help themselves. We can point our fingers at those who intentionally ignore the truth, but we cannot ignore a truth when we are sure of it.

"Kindness wins. Kindness always wins".( "Tuesdays with Morrie".) And for us, kindness begins with doing for those who cannot do for themselves.

[Palerider]

Since a film was recommended, I'd like to throw Flight of the Phoenix into the mix. The first was made in 1965 with Jimmy Stewart. The second in 2004 with Dennis Quaid. Either is an excellent choice although I probably favor the first, being an old timer myself.

The crux of the film is that once the plane initially goes down, no one has a solid plan for rescue and because of the character traits of everyone involved, death is a slow dawning certainty. The antihero who finally promotes a solution is a quirky, germanic type, who has no social skills whatsoever. He's the guy you sort of love to hate and yet he's the only person who can produce a solution.

There are no racial tensions involved or much in a cultural way either. Just the extreme stress of dealing with a life and death situation compounded by numerous intolerable personalities who are non-the-less absolutely necessary to the salvation of the group.

The reason this film resonates with me is because of the general lack of real "cultural" or race differences.

From my perspective I recognize that prejudice and differences exist among humans but I don't limit it by race, culture or gender.

When people complain too loudly about how white men treat or exploit women in business or society, I think "You should have seen how they treated OTHER men before women entered the workforce." And it isn't ALL white men. It's a number of real a$$holes that have always existed and probably always will. Not all white men are that way. Just enough to give the rest a bad reputation.

Do black Americans think there wasn't any tribal prejudice or exploitation between blacks in Africa before whites arrived? Prejudice is prejudice whether it's based on tribe or skin color.

Many Native Americans like to paint a paradisaical picture of America before the dirty white man arrived, but I've studied this enough to know that there was an almost constant tension over maintaining territory and hunting grounds among many tribes. Warfare was fairly common and some tribes were utterly dreaded for their fierceness.

That doesn't excuse European supremecy and it's devastating effects at all. Pretty horrific.

But if we're talking about prejudice, exploiation, exclusion, etc. then I think the truth is a good place to start.

[RubinHighlander]

We watched this last year, it's an excellent film!

I'll check out the Flight of the Phoenix too.

[Mad Jax]

Do black Americans think there wasn't any tribal prejudice or exploitation between blacks in Africa before whites arrived? Prejudice is prejudice whether it's based on tribe or skin color.

Many Native Americans like to paint a paradisaical picture of America before the dirty white man arrived, but I've studied this enough to know that there was an almost constant tension over maintaining territory and hunting grounds among many tribes. Warfare was fairly common and some tribes were utterly dreaded for their fierceness.

I believe it depends on the demographic to some degree. In my blue collar and military experience, this isn't something I've seen too many people of any stripe believe - that there's some kind of white hegemony of power that drives all strife. When you argue with everybody all the time, when people of your own ethnicity/genetic similarity are more often your enemy than someone of a different race, it kind of makes that fairy tale hard to believe. At least I think that's what goes through most people's heads. That said, there is racial tension in the military for sure. You don't want to go through the wrong part of the barracks. But there isn't a lot of talk about white people ruining the world for everyone else in my experience.

Conversely, in my white collar experience, this is something I've noticed more frequently. The conversation was always polite, however, at least in college and when I worked in data analysis. The idea that white people are always singled out ahead of others for promotion is something I've come across. Similarly, this is where I more often saw the "women are out to ruin the workplace" mentality. I'm not saying there isn't crossover, or that I may be perceiving things incorrectly. I'm just saying I noticed these things more often in the less physical types of work I've done.

[deacon blues]

In my experience, I'll have to go along with "Kindness Wins." I'd also like to add that I love the old movies that have a story line and a moral. I don't recall ever crying in a F&T meeting, but I'm known to cry at some of those movies- "Fiddler On The Roof", "West Side Story", "Spartacus" being particularly moving for me. And Don't forget the classic: "Dirty Harry."

[DPRoberts]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, everyone is not entitled to their "own" facts.

- I don't know who came up with this, or if I repeated it verbatim, but I actually heard it on a podcast this morning.

Daniel Patrick Moynihan was credited with words to that effect. I had a boss who often repeated it.