Girls Allowed into Boy Scouts... Now the Church is Really Going to Dump Scouting

[GoodBoy]

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/News/boy-scou ... d=54878120

Thoughts?

[wtfluff]

Thoughts?

Good for them! (The "Scouts BSA" folks that is...)

The church already dumped the 11-17 scouting program. Are you thinking they're going to dump the younger program now too?

[Jeffret]

I don't know. I've talked with a very engaged Mormon woman who is preparing to be one of the leaders for the girl troop in her Mormon ward once the BSA allows them to start signing up. She asserts that the adoption of Scouts BSA for Mormon girls is well on its way and is supported from the highest levels.

Girls have started joining Cub Scouts, in a limited number of pilot Packs. Cub Scout registration opens more generally for girls when the program does its annual membership drives at the beginning of the school year around August.

The newly named Scouts BSA (formerly Boy Scouts) will open to girls next February, in 2019.

And it's certainly not true that the church dumped scouting for boys aged 11-17. I still see many Mormons in attendance at Roundtable every month representing their packs and troops. My parents are heavily involved in scouting in their ward. And my nephew is working on his Boy Scout advancement in his ward. The Church restructured how they register boys in this age range, but I'm not sure how much practical changes were involved.

[wtfluff]

And it's certainly not true that the church dumped scouting for boys aged 11-17. I still see many Mormons in attendance at Roundtable every month representing their packs and troops. My parents are heavily involved in scouting in their ward. And my nephew is working on his Boy Scout advancement in his ward. The Church restructured how they register boys in this age range, but I'm not sure how much practical changes were involved.

I was wrong with my age range. The church "dumped" scouting for the 13-18 year olds.

I imagine it will take some time for those 12-18 kids to get "phased out" as the "dumping" was supposed to begin Jan 1, 2018, but it is interesting that you haven't seen any changes. Maybe some local units are ignoring the mandate from above? (I see that as a good thing.)

https://www.lds.org/church/news/church- ... m?lang=eng

[slavereeno]

This won't mean that much really, likely Scouts BSA will still allow individual charters to opt out like they did with the gay leader thing. That being said I think the church will eventually dump scouting altogether.

[Palerider]

I'm a little confused by the new moniker. Wouldn't "Scouts BSA" just stand for "Scouts, Boy Scouts of America"? If that's it, it doesn't make sense to me.

"Scouts of America" seems better.

[Jeffret]

I was wrong with my age range. The church "dumped" scouting for the 13-18 year olds.

I imagine it will take some time for those 12-18 kids to get "phased out" as the "dumping" was supposed to begin Jan 1, 2018, but it is interesting that you haven't seen any changes. Maybe some local units are ignoring the mandate from above? (I see that as a good thing.)

https://www.lds.org/church/news/church- ... m?lang=eng

Back when this announcement first came out, we discussed it on NOM. I recall that the information provided at that time was unclear and we were uncertain just what it would mean and what would change. (That's similar to the situation today with regards to girls in Scouts BSA. We were speculating on it mightily at Roundtable this month, because the given information is vague and possibly contradictory.) I don't know the details of what actually changed when it settled down. When I asked my parents about the announcement afterwards, they indicated it was more administrative. I think what it boils down to mostly is that the Church no longer registers separate units for Varsity (teacher age) and Explorer (priest age) and just registers anyone who is interested (i.e., everyone) under the Troop. The Church created the Varsity program for its teacher-age boys and the BSA accepted it as a general program but it never caught on outside the Mormon Church. The BSA Explorer program has been very different from what the Church had done for years. I know my mom continues to work with 17 year-old (and other ages) young men in their ward on completing their Scout advancement requirements.

[Mad Jax]

I honestly doubt I'd let my kid (if I could have kids) join scouting after hearing this. Call me old fashioned, but I'd be worried enough about him/her becoming a teen parent without hand delivering opportunities, via outings, for them to rush off together. And yes I know he/she would be likely to find a way regardless, but who thinks to bring condoms on a scouting trip? I guess I just remember thinking that scouting was one thing, if I was to have kids, that I could consider a respite from that worry.

Yes I know, the fact that I would stress this probably indicates what kind of teenager I was.

[Mad Jax]

I'm a little confused by the new moniker. Wouldn't "Scouts BSA" just stand for "Scouts, Boy Scouts of America"? If that's it, it doesn't make sense to me.

"Scouts of America" seems better.

I've searched numerous sources and none answer the question. I agree that, unless the abbreviation stands for something different, this is dumb.

[IT_Veteran]

I've felt like the only reason the church held on to scouting in any form was because of Monson's affinity for scouting. Now that he is gone, I don't think it'll take long to move on from it at all. I'm a little surprised they didn't announce it at the April GC. They want as much time as possible to prepare the YM for missions; scouting no longer serves that purpose. Rather than an organization that builds teamwork and community around shared experiences, they're more worried about building the testimonies of the young men that will be serving in 1-6 years.

[Hagoth]

Does this mean girls get the priesthood?!

[2bizE]

A few weeks ago the bishop shared some official church documents/guidelines on insurance for church activities. Basically it said that if anything happens on an activity, the church will throw you under the bus and not cover you with insurance. Every activity, small or large needs a signed release from parents. If you are in a car crash taking kids home from mutual, it is you who covers costs. The list went on. I instantly felt a desire to get out of scouts / YM as the church will not have your back on anything.
anyone else experience this?

[2bizE]

I hope the church allows girls into Scouts BSA. The YM and YW camp funds could then be combined. Can you imagine being a 13 year old boy and not really interested in going to scout camp. Then you find out cute girls will be there too. Nice.

[Jeffret]

Can you imagine being a 13 year old boy and not really interested in going to scout camp. Then you find out cute girls will be there too. Nice.

That's pretty much what's going to be happening. We don't know yet how it will play out within the Mormon Church, but in general that's what's going to be happening. We've been getting reports that lots of girls are interested in joining, in Cubs and Scouts. Around the world, this is nothing new. The U.S.A. versions of scouting have been unusual, real outliers, for some years now in maintaining sex-segregated versions of scouting. In Britain, scouting went fully co-ed in 2005 / 2007. More girls than boys join.

[alas]

Usually the BSA, now Scouts BSA, allows local troops to have complete control over who they allow to join or lead. Why will this change? and hell will freeze over before the church treats girls like human beings. So, no, the church isn't letting girls into its scout troops. I would bet my life on that the church will not let girls into scouting. Not going to happen because the church sees girls and boys as different species and boys need to delelop skills, and leadership and feel good about themselves. The girls need to learn that they are second class and that their role is to sit down and shut up.

Somewhere I read that many churches or other sponsors of troops will have separate troops now, one for boys and one for girls. This will avoid the coed camping problems.

[Jeffret]

Usually the BSA, now Scouts BSA, allows local troops to have complete control over who they allow to join or lead.

That's not entirely true, at least not in theory or by policy. In practice, anti-discrimination can always get messy. The BSA has some anti-discrimination standards. It prohibits discrimination on the basis of race. In earlier times for a while the BSA allowed local units or councils to choose whether they accepted racial integration. In 1974 the national body required that all units avoid discrimination based on race. In its more recent change, the BSA prohibits discrimination or exclusion based on sexual orientation for its youth members. And I think they recently added gender identity to that. When it comes to adult leaders, the situation is more complicated. Local units are given the authority to choose their own leaders. In Mormon units, the leaders are chosen by the bishop. This allows for some local latitude for discrimination in adult leadership. They might not allow racial discrimination for adults, but demonstrating that could be difficult in many cases.

So, no, the church isn't letting girls into its scout troops. I would bet my life on that the church will not let girls into scouting. Not going to happen because the church sees girls and boys as different species and boys need to delelop skills, and leadership and feel good about themselves. The girls need to learn that they are second class and that their role is to sit down and shut up.

I know a faithful Mormon woman is very convinced that Mormon girls are going to be involved Scouts BSA. She and her friends are attending BSA training in preparation. She has said that support for girls in Scouts has come from high Church levels. I'm certain she isn't lying and very much hope she isn't mistaken. If she's right, this could end up being a very big deal.

Somewhere I read that many churches or other sponsors of troops will have separate troops now, one for boys and one for girls. This will avoid the coed camping problems.

That's basically the requirement at this point. Let me explain the details.

Cub Packs, for kids 6-10, are already starting to integrate. A pack must have separate dens for boys and girls, but they are allowed to meet together. Given the difficulty in recruiting leaders, practically that means that in most (non-Mormon) packs the boys and girls will be mixed in the same activities. Not sure yet how that will play out in Mormon packs. Cubs can go on limited camping outings, so the coed camping problems, whatever they are, exist right now.

According to the statements we have so far from the National BSA, there will have to be separate troops for boys and girls at the Scouts level (ages 11-17). However, more recent materials indicate they will be able to meet together at least part of the time. Certainly boy troops and girl troops will participate together at multi-troop camping events, such as camporees, klondikes, and summer camp. Frankly, the writing is on the wall -- from a practical perspective boys and girls are going to be pretty well-integrated (at least outside Mormon-limited circles) by necessity, convenience, and lack of any meaningful reason not to.

The BSA has already had whatever coed camping problems exist for nearly 20 years. That's how long the Venturing program (ages 14-21) has been coed. The Exploring program has probably been coed about that same time, though they don't usually focus on camping much. About six years ago our troop was camped at a multi-troop event where there was also a Venturing Crew in attendance. All the adults in my troop recognized how strongly one of the Venturing girls was hitting on my son. The BSA training materials for Venturing crew advisors (adults) has long included information and rules on coed activities. The Youth Protection Training for all adults has been revamped and extended to include coed issues and much better information on what to watch for.

[GoodBoy]

I just don't think that the church will allow integration of boys and girls activities.

I read up on this, though and come to find out, the new program isn't coed. There will be all-boy and all-girl troops.

[alas]

My comments is red.

Usually the BSA, now Scouts BSA, allows local troops to have complete control over who they allow to join or lead.

That's not entirely true, at least not in theory or by policy. In practice, anti-discrimination can always get messy. The BSA has some anti-discrimination standards. It prohibits discrimination on the basis of race. In earlier times for a while the BSA allowed local units or councils to choose whether they accepted racial integration. In 1974 the national body required that all units avoid discrimination based on race. In its more recent change, the BSA prohibits discrimination or exclusion based on sexual orientation for its youth members. And I think they recently added gender identity to that. When it comes to adult leaders, the situation is more complicated. Local units are given the authority to choose their own leaders. In Mormon units, the leaders are chosen by the bishop. This allows for some local latitude for discrimination in adult leadership. They might not allow racial discrimination for adults, but demonstrating that could be difficult in many cases.

but even the SCOTUS has ruled differently with sex than with race. So, I am wondering if there will be exceptions made for troops that do not want to allow girls.

So, no, the church isn't letting girls into its scout troops. I would bet my life on that the church will not let girls into scouting. Not going to happen because the church sees girls and boys as different species and boys need to delelop skills, and leadership and feel good about themselves. The girls need to learn that they are second class and that their role is to sit down and shut up.

I know a faithful Mormon woman is very convinced that Mormon girls are going to be involved Scouts BSA. She and her friends are attending BSA training in preparation. She has said that support for girls in Scouts has come from high Church levels. I'm certain she isn't lying and very much hope she isn't mistaken. If she's right, this could end up being a very big deal.
i know, I am cynical. But I will eat my hat while doing a happy dance if the church lets girls into its scouting program.

Somewhere I read that many churches or other sponsors of troops will have separate troops now, one for boys and one for girls. This will avoid the coed camping problems.

That's basically the requirement at this point. Let me explain the details.

Cub Packs, for kids 6-10, are already starting to integrate. A pack must have separate dens for boys and girls, but they are allowed to meet together. Given the difficulty in recruiting leaders, practically that means that in most (non-Mormon) packs the boys and girls will be mixed in the same activities. Not sure yet how that will play out in Mormon packs. Cubs can go on limited camping outings, so the coed camping problems, whatever they are, exist right now.

According to the statements we have so far from the National BSA, there will have to be separate troops for boys and girls at the Scouts level (ages 11-17). However, more recent materials indicate they will be able to meet together at least part of the time. Certainly boy troops and girl troops will participate together at multi-troop camping events, such as camporees, klondikes, and summer camp. Frankly, the writing is on the wall -- from a practical perspective boys and girls are going to be pretty well-integrated (at least outside Mormon-limited circles) by necessity, convenience, and lack of any meaningful reason not to.

The BSA has already had whatever coed camping problems exist for nearly 20 years. That's how long the Venturing program (ages 14-21) has been coed. The Exploring program has probably been coed about that same time, though they don't usually focus on camping much. About six years ago our troop was camped at a multi-troop event where there was also a Venturing Crew in attendance. All the adults in my troop recognized how strongly one of the Venturing girls was hitting on my son. The BSA training materials for Venturing crew advisors (adults) has long included information and rules on coed activities. The Youth Protection Training for all adults has been revamped and extended to include coed issues and much better information on what to watch for.

Thanks for the details. But the church has always had...I forget the term because I never went on one. But all the teens go to BYU or someplace and live in the dorms while having classes and dances. I met my first real boy friend when he was at BYU for one of these. So, I don't see any real problem. The church has always had coed stuff for the teens, including camping because I went on some as Mmen and Gleaners.

OK, just had a thought from my Mmen and Gleaner days. See we went on this camp out and it was, um, chaperoned??? The "chaperones" we're having sex in their sleeping bags in full view of any one who was awake. My fiancé and I put the openings of our sleeping bags together, unzipped a little ways, and had the best make out session *ever*. It was probably the naughtiest we ever got, but the Chaperones were setting such a good example. Chaperones are not enough, they need to put the girls in tents and the boys in tents, across the campground from each other.

I still think the church will drop out of scouting before allowing girls to join. I mean, are there any preparations for girls going into Cubs? Nope, we still have the sorry excuse for a girls program called activity days.

So, like I said, I will eat my hat while doing a happy dance if the church lets girls into its scouting program.

[Jeffret]

I just don't think that the church will allow integration of boys and girls activities.

But, they already do. And have for a long time. Unless they've changed things since I left.

There is a monthly combined (coed) activity for youth activity night. Sunday School classes are coed. Even back when I was a teen, we had coed youth conferences. I've never been but I understand a key feature of Trek is that it's coed. We used to have various leadership trainings, activities, outings, and excursions that included boys and girls.

The Church will certainly run the boys and girls programs separately. But when they both need to work on first aid, they may very well get together to share resources. Or any number of their common requirements and activities. And unless they wholly cloister themselves, which is only possible along the Wasatch Front, they'll encounter integration at multi-troop events. And, as I described above that situation has actually already existed for years and its prevalence is going to spike.

[Jeffret]

but even the SCOTUS has ruled differently with sex than with race. So, I am wondering if there will be exceptions made for troops that do not want to allow girls.

For now, that's the official policy. Packs can choose whether to admit girls, though outside of Mormonism I think the vast majority are going to. Troops have to be sex-segregated. On paper.

But, unless they always stay cloistered away in their segregated world, they're going to encounter co-ed activities. And as time goes by, that's going to become the default. At least in general society. If Mormons manage to resist that, they'll only widen that gulf and deepen their problems.