Making sense of "spiritual" experiences

[whatififly]

I have been able to attribute a lot of spiritual experiences to simply strong emotions or a sense of community or purpose. However, I have had a few experiences that I can't explain away. I feel quite certain that the church is the product of a clever and manipulative con man, but one of these experiences leaves me more unsure than I feel comfortable with.

When I was 9 or 10 years old I was reading the BOM out loud to myself before bed and was overcome with happiness. I started crying even though I didn't necessarily understand what I was reading about. It was Jacob 5, the allegory of the Olive tree and the vineyard.

I can't explain that away and when I think about it I feel terrified that maybe I am being deceived by Satan. Logically, I don't think God would condemn me over leaving the church even if it was true, so intellectually this isnt really an issue. Emotionally, it's difficult. I think of all the quotes about how people who receive a witness and then leave are condemned. Was that a witness? What was that about? Does anyone have an explanation for that so I can put it to rest and not be haunted by it anymore?

[jfro18]

I don't know that you can ever *explain* it all.

I think for me personally I've had moments where I've felt really overcome with joy, fear, anger, etc that when I look back on them I wonder why I felt so strongly about it. I think sometimes I was really tired and it's easier to feel emotions, sometimes stressed, sometimes it was when I got good news, etc.

One thing that sucks about talking about this topic is that no matter what it undermines what people view as a 'testimony,' which I hate to do. I think since I've left the church I have seen a lot of videos where people talk about being overcome with the spirit from all religions, which of course makes me think heavily that the confirmation comes from within.

Anyway -- in a roundabout way I'm just saying that we don't always know where it comes from, but that I personally have become confident in not putting too much weight on it. I think those moments are so personal that you have to really come to some sort of decision on your own as you think about what might have sparked it.

I'm so much more sure on historical issues than spiritual ones

[Arcturus]

Great post whatififly!

I've been thinking about this for a while. Like you, I attribute many of the "spiritual experiences" I've had throughout my life to strong emotions and the natural human (biological) reaction to things that are touching and beautiful. However, I also have had one moment in my life where I experienced something otherworldly that I will never forget. As best I can explain it, it was a baptism by fire. It came at a completely random moment when I was a teenager - I was thinking about Jesus and of all things the lyrics to a Lifehouse song ("fall back into the arms of Christ") and then I was slammed with the most powerful feeling of love that is difficult to describe. I can't chalk it up to emotions. It was insane and unforgettable. Literally overwhelming. That experience keeps me hanging onto the belief that there's something special about Christ and that God loves me. Other than that, I don't know anything and I choose to believe in things that are consistent with God's love. I wonder how many NOMs here have had a similar experiences and are willing to share. But I think what TBMs are taught to think is that on average, emotions are the spirit. And I really disagree with that.

I also know many sincere active Mormons who have told me that they've never had a "spiritual experience" and they wonder if they're screwed up or something. I think these may be more numerous than those who claim to have had powerful spiritual experiences. My DW for example - she's never had a strong spiritual experience according to the Mormon construct of what that means. But she continues to have faith in God despite the cluster show that organized religion can be.

[didyoumythme]

It’s ok to accept that you had a spiritual experience. You were raised Mormon and that was the framework you had to work with. It’s another leap to say that it gave you a sure testimony that “it’s all true” (as we are taught to believe). You had unexplainable positive feelings, but I view that as an experience of ‘beauty’ not of ‘truth’.

Like jfro18 mentioned, lots of people claim spiritual experiences in their own religions, so it’s hard to argue that those feelings point to a ‘one true church’.

I don’t mean to divert the conversation, but I find that people who have had experiences with ‘evil spirits’ tend to take that as evidence of the church being true as well. However, it is always something creepy and unexplainable, but never anything uniquely mormon. When sprits show up apparently they always forget to confirm any piece of Mormon doctrine before disappearing again...

[IT_Veteran]

I see this as one of three possible things, I’ll list them as I see them from least probable to most.

1) The church is true, JS saw God, and restored the church to the earth.

2) A loving God exists and doesn’t really care which religion we adhere to, but just wants us to be happy. He gives us a witness of the spirit just to let us know he’s there when we’re ready to receive it.

3) (my personal favorite) God may or may not exist. All of these experiences can be attributed to the human brain. The brain is incredibly powerful. Here’s a link to a great TED speaker discussing how memories themselves are malleable and manipulated by our own desires and those around us. Eyewitnesses are often the least reliable, yet are given considerable credence. If we can’t trust our own memory, I no longer trust emotion or feelings, however strong, to help me differentiate between truth and fiction. That’s not to say feelings aren’t valuable, they just aren’t particularly useful for discerning truth.

https://www.ted.com/speakers/elizabeth_loftus

[Palerider]

My witness of Christ came strongest when I was reading the New Testament at age 19. There had been some earlier "spiritual bumps" or nudges throughout my life but that was the one that set me on my life's path. No tears involved whatsoever. Kind of difficult to describe. More like being enlightened from within. Felt very concrete but in a weightless sort of way. I couldn't deny the experience.

So how does that work in conjunction with a church teaching half truths or some false doctrines?

I'd like to pose a question.

From a Mormon point of view if a righteous Methodist said they had a testimony of Christ, would the Mormon say, "Oh no, you can't have a testimony of Christ until you join the Mormon church."? Of course not. They would say, "Great, now we're going to give you the whole truth that you're missing." So Mormons don't deny spiritual experiences in less than true or less than perfect religions.

Or put another way, imagine you are someone who has begun searching for God and you encounter the Mormon missionaries. You begin reading the book of Mormon and it testifies of Christ. Do you think God would say, "I'm not going to give you a testimony of Christ because you're looking at an imperfect religion."?

If that were the case, NO ONE would receive a witness of Christ or God because currently there is no perfect or "true" religion on earth.

I look at Luke 9:49-50 and see a possible answer:

49"And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. 50And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us."

So here we have an unauthorized individual who doesn't follow the Savior in the expected way and yet Christ tells his disciples not to forbid him because he is promulgating Christ's name.

Another example comes from the Old Testament that I think very few people really understand.

There are numerous times when ancient Israel is in dire need of divine help because of their own fault. They actually don't deserve any help at all.

Still because God has declared Israel as His people, he states, "I will do this FOR MY NAME'S SAKE."

In other words, Jehovah, God, Christ, is/are willing to suffer with man's imperfection in order to honor His NAME.

Sadly and tragically the LDS faith (or leadership) can view OTHER churches this way but they are utterly blind to the possibility that they might be or actually are, just as crooked, bent, or untrue as any other existing organization. Maybe more so with a number of exceptions.

To Mormons, it''s just not possible that someone could recieve a testimony of Christ in the LDS church and that not be a sign and verification that the entire church is absolutely God's one true church upon the earth.

I would never tell the LDS faith to stop teaching of Christ. But I also don't hesitate to call out all of their false doctrines. Remember what the Lord says in Matthew:

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Those who seek the Lord innocently and are partially led astray will probably be viewed with Mercy. Those leaders who led them astray for their own glory here on earth, who hid the truth and knew better will wish for Mercy.

[Kalikala]

I feel that regardless of how the BoM actually came to be, it is still full of a lot of good. I believe that we all have divinity within us that recognizes good things. So I have no problem saying I don’t believe most of the doctrines of the church, but I still love the BoM and those spiritual experiences that I’ve had.

[Palerider]

I feel that regardless of how the BoM actually came to be, it is still full of a lot of good. I believe that we all have divinity within us that recognizes good things. So I have no problem saying I don’t believe most of the doctrines of the church, but I still love the BoM and those spiritual experiences that I’ve had.

I would agree with much of this.

If no true organization exists then the first order of business is to get someone pointed in the right direction. Towards Christ. As they grow spiritually, with sincere effort, they will peel away the false doctrines to expose and embrace the pearl of great price. And that's not the LDS version either...

[LucyHoneychurch]

The most potent spiritual experience I ever had was in a Christian church many months after I quit the LDS faith. Bear with me because I am well-aware of how weird this will sound.

Several coincidental alignments happened within a couple of days, as if something supernatural was trying to get through to me with a message that I was loved, cared for by this something powerful and infinite, and that I could stop struggling and accept grace for myself and my situation. It happened through a shared dream, the identification of a particular bird, and an old song. The moment I accepted grace, a lady put her hands on my head to pray and seal my acceptance by her spiritual gift and witness. I felt the darkness pull away from my mind, and started to fall back in a faint. Yep...that happened.

Yet, I'm an agnostic atheist. One who happens to love the ideal of grace and how having grace for myself and others makes my life so much more pleasant and peaceful. The message I take from the grand New Testament mythology is that we should sit with the broken, love radically, and live lives of grace.

I'm not a literal believer in the supernatural, and I don't think we have spirits. We have powerful minds and bodies that respond to our imminent needs, imho. So, to me spirituality is a dance I have with life's mysteries and wonders. The fact that my experience was psychological and emotional, and not magical does not lessen its impact on who I am and how I live. All it does is change my interpretation of how the experience came to be.

[slavereeno]

Going to throw my hat in the ring here...

I had a very similar experience as a teenager, it was related to the concept of mercy & acceptance from Christ. It was overwhelming and unexplainable, to me at the time. For this reason, even though I still no longer claim to know the true nature of God or Christ or to what degree they are supernatural or whatever, the idea and ideals of Christ and his teachings are still important to me.

I do think our minds, especially during our formative years crave that acceptance by adults, teachers, authority, God, etc, and when we finally feel it, it can be overwhelming. The icky part to me is to then say "Now that you have had this emotional response you can't explain, I own you. You have to believe everything else I say, and obey me for the rest of your life." That is why the church puts so much effort into the YM/YW programs. The church hovers over teens like a pack of vultures waiting to pounce on the inevitable emotion, even trying to bait it, so they can decend on it and claim it for themselves.

I later had a similar experience as an adult with the move InsideOut, when Riley hugs her parents at the end. I wept. (ok, fine, I am a big baby) but that doesn't obligate me to believe in the church of Disney.

[MoPag]

Your spiritual experiences are YOUR experiences. You get to decide what they mean to you now that you've have an awakening.

If you feel more comfortable not walking a spiritual path-Great! Call these experiences emotions, creations of your mind, etc.

If you want to walk a spiritual path-Great! Look for these moments outside the cage Mormonism put you in. Look for them in nature, in art museums, in poetry, in movies. Look for moments that connect you to something higher and vaster than this plane.

Just remember these moments are gifts. They don't mean that you owe anyone or any being anything.


And for the record: I also have a spiritual connection to certain parts of the BOM too.

[wtfluff]

One phrase I've come to embrace much more since finding the light-switch is:

"I don't know."

I don't have to have an answer for everything. The vast majority of the "answers" that mormonism shoved down my throat weren't really answers anyway.

With that being said, I don't remember ever having one of those overwhelming "spiritual" experiences that I cannot chalk up to plain old emotion. Elevated emotion, but nonetheless, emotion. I continue to have those same sorts of experiences, and I can reproduce them any time I like with music and putting myself in the "right" frame of mind.

The fact that mormonism hijacked and manipulated my emotions ("The Spirit™") for over 40 years leaves me extremely skeptical of attributing any "truth" to feelings. I'm probably overly skeptical of that sort of epistemology in fact, but you know the old saying: "Fool me once..."

[Hagoth]

One thing I learned from serving a mission in the deep South is that Mormons have a very watered-down version of spiritual experiences. The way I explained it to myself at the time was that Satan was trying too hard, and our boring religious experience was evidence of its authenticity. And, of course, all of the people who told me they had been healed or witnessed healing by faith healers were walking evidence of Satan's craftiness. True healing is so subtle you can never be quite sure it really happened.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

One thing I learned from serving a mission in the deep South is that Mormons have a very watered-down version of spiritual experiences. The way I explained it to myself at the time was that Satan was trying too hard, and our boring religious experience was evidence of its authenticity. And, of course, all of the people who told me they had been healed or witnessed healing by faith healers were walking evidence of Satan's craftiness. True healing is so subtle you can never be quite sure it really happened.

Exactly this, I always thought we couldn't compete with the southern christian worship services either.

[whatififly]

It’s ok to accept that you had a spiritual experience. You were raised Mormon and that was the framework you had to work with. It’s another leap to say that it gave you a sure testimony that “it’s all true” (as we are taught to believe). You had unexplainable positive feelings, but I view that as an experience of ‘beauty’ not of ‘truth’.

Like jfro18 mentioned, lots of people claim spiritual experiences in their own religions, so it’s hard to argue that those feelings point to a ‘one true church’.

I don’t mean to divert the conversation, but I find that people who have had experiences with ‘evil spirits’ tend to take that as evidence of the church being true as well. However, it is always something creepy and unexplainable, but never anything uniquely mormon. When sprits show up apparently they always forget to confirm any piece of Mormon doctrine before disappearing again...

I like this interpretation of experiencing beauty rather than truth. Your observation of people taking experiences with "the other side" to mean the church is true is spot on and something I've been pondering. I recently told an LDS acquaintance that I no longer attend church and she immediately began expressing her belief in God and miracles, implying that therefore the church must be true. Honestly, I believe in miracles too. I've had a few experiences that to me lend credence to the idea of a higher power. I don't think it means the church is true, I just think there is something in the universe that I don't understand yet.

[whatififly]

Going to throw my hat in the ring here...

I had a very similar experience as a teenager, it was related to the concept of mercy & acceptance from Christ. It was overwhelming and unexplainable, to me at the time. For this reason, even though I still no longer claim to know the true nature of God or Christ or to what degree they are supernatural or whatever, the idea and ideals of Christ and his teachings are still important to me.

I later had a similar experience as an adult with the move InsideOut, when Riley hugs her parents at the end. I wept. (ok, fine, I am a big baby) but that doesn't obligate me to believe in the church of Disney.

I feel the same way about Christ. I've removed some LDS paraphernalia from my home but I can't bring myself to remove Christian pictures or figurines that aren't distinctly LDS. I don't know that I believe in the divinity of Christ anymore, but I do know that what he taught about love has made me who I am and who I want to be.

I have felt the "spirit" when reading novels and watching fictional movies. I think there may just be something in each of us searching for beauty, whether in nature, relationships, or exceptional poetry. There's something in our brains (or spirits, I don't know anymore) that responds to it.

[Reuben]

Here's something I wrote earlier today on belief, which accounts for a lot of spiritual experiences in the church.

Here’s an example of how these three things - cognitive dissonance, group identity, and the feeling of acceptance and belonging - work together to strengthen belief in the Church’s claims to truth and authority.

Suppose a Mormon young woman stands up in testimony meeting. She knows that everyone else says “I know” to start a statement of belief, but she’s uncertain. She desperately wants to belong, which Mormons, like most groups, allow themselves to predicate on fitting in. She’s also been taught that “a testimony is to be found in the bearing of it.” She finally musters her courage and says, “I know the church is true!” This statement of certainty in front of the entire congregation is a weighty commitment. Having done it creates some cognitive dissonance, which her mind resolves by raising her belief. Now she really does know! As she stares out at the smiling faces of friends and family who also know, a warm glow of acceptance and belonging spreads through her, which she interprets as a witness of the Spirit. Now she knows that she knows! She’s never been so happy.

A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it, indeed. It really does work.

Here’s the thing: it works for all kinds of wacky bullshit. One of the most disturbing things I heard during the two months after my faith crisis was a recording of a fundamentalist Mormon splinter group’s testimony meeting, in which young woman who had just graduated from high school testified of their prophet and of living as a polygamous wife.

[dogbite]

Why do you call them spiritual experiences? Humans are intensely societally pre-loaded to interpret things that way which doesn't mean that that's what they were. Indeed we have no basis of differentiating a spiritual experience or any other experience except for the cultural biases we all have. Why aren't these others experiences equal like love or heartbreak without having the metaphysical baggage of being spiritual when we have no basis for that special classification.

You no longer have to make sense of them assomething they probably really aren't once they're freed of the cultural baggage.