The War Against True Church History

[Cnsl1]

I have a hard time with historians because they idolize the truth. The truth is not uplifting; it destroys. I could tell most of the secretaries in the church office building that they are ugly and fat. That would be the truth, but it would hurt and destroy them. Historians should tell only that part of the truth that is inspiring and uplifting.
-- Packer, BYU Address, “The Mantle,” 272, 263, 1976.

Wait... Packer actually said that most of the secretaries in the church office building were ugly and fat? That would be the truth? Is this documented anywhere? What an awful, awful, insensitive thing to say to make an asinine point.

Is this documented?

I have a hard time believing he'd be that stupid.

[Cnsl1]

I think many just don't WANT to know. The thought of it NOT being true is too difficult a concept to hold in their brain. I heard one in law state, "if it's not true, I don't want to know about it". I think that even the thought of having a theological paradigm shift was too taxing to entertain. Imagine preferring being duped over changing your paradigm. I dk.

[Cnsl1]

And I also think there are several people who don't believe everything yet choose to stay and accept the imperfections of the church because they care about the people in it. They may not believe it's true, but they believe much of it is good. So they stay and focus on the good things, and try not to let the stupid, the inane, and the outright bad stuff bother them too much. They keep quiet about their true feelings most of the time, and focus on being nice to people. They often slip out early when lessons get too ridiculous, but they try not to make too many waves. They wonder who else might believe as they do, but also don't speak up.

Sometimes I wonder what would happen if someone just got up in testimony mtg and asked for a raise if hands.. "who all doesn't really believe this stuff?'

[Jeffret]

DW has asked a few times during our discussions "If this information is available, how come more people aren't leaving the church?" I want to think its happening in droves, but it isn't, not by a long stretch, at least not in our area.

I agree with her question, I am surprised people aren't coming across this information more frequently, and that they remain faithful when they do, and my apologist friend makes no sense whatsoever to me.

Numerous studies have shown that most people join and leave churches primarily for social reasons. Or simply that they attend church for social reasons. It's not really about truth, though sometimes they try to rationalize it that way to themselves. Those who really do leave or join a church for logical, truth, or historical reasons are in the minority.

Most people didn't join their church because of intellectual reasons, therefore better intellectual reasons aren't going to get them to leave. It's tough to talk someone out of something, especially when they were never talked into it.For most of them it's just what they were born into, and hence what they've been socialized into their whole life. For those that convert, social reasons usually dominate.

Church is a big social club and meets the social needs of many people. The LDS Church is a pretty expensive one, but it provides lots of intensive social experiences.

[Reuben]

I think there is another group.
I think there are a lot of people who are well read on issues, those who "choose faith" that it just hasnt clicked for yet because they are too busy in the church and run too many distractions to put it together and are missing a couple pieces. Kind of like the 6th sense: you watch it/live it and its amazing. All the clues are there but you just dont see it...until you do. Then its so obvious you feel stupid you didnt see it before...and if you suffer through 100 viewings you find yourself wondering what you ever thought of it.

I think there are a lot of members it just hasnt clicked for yet. Not because they dont know, but they just havemt had time to connect the dots.

These also can be some of the most obnoxious judgmental types. The "Look at me, I've known these things but you don't see me giving up!" attitude. Richard Bushman in some of his comments gives a bit of this attitude towards those who let clean living standards slip after learning the truth.

I was one of those know-it-and-choose-faith types. I think I managed to avoid being a douchebag because I knew that some historical things just didn't have a good explanation, and that the real history is a faith minefield. I had no desire to bring most of it up in the first place, not even to brag. And I kind of like to brag.

I like mooseman's characterization. I wouldn't say the reason I didn't put it together was because I was distracted, though. I was motivated. I had a lot riding on not noticing certain things and not combining certain bits of knowledge, so I didn't. Good thing, too. I probably wouldn't have finished my degree at BYU, for starters. I finally did at a time of life where a faith crisis would do comparatively little direct damage.

[moksha]

Wait... Packer actually said that most of the secretaries in the church office building were ugly and fat? That would be the truth? Is this documented anywhere? What an awful, awful, insensitive thing to say to make an asinine point.

Is this documented?

I have a hard time believing he'd be that stupid.

I think Elder Packer was describing to Michael Quinn how he expected historians who are LDS to approach their writings. A variation of the saying goes, "If you can't say anything nice then don't say anything at all". It also corresponds to the saying, "Sugar-coated history attracts more Mormons than actual vinegary history". It was probably naive of Elder Parker to think a historian would not write it down. The comment about the secretaries was part of the male chauvinism of the 20th Century in thinking that denigrating women somehow bolstered the point he wished to make.

[mooseman]

I think there is another group.
I think there are a lot of people who are well read on issues, those who "choose faith" that it just hasnt clicked for yet because they are too busy in the church and run too many distractions to put it together and are missing a couple pieces. Kind of like the 6th sense: you watch it/live it and its amazing. All the clues are there but you just dont see it...until you do. Then its so obvious you feel stupid you didnt see it before...and if you suffer through 100 viewings you find yourself wondering what you ever thought of it.

I think there are a lot of members it just hasnt clicked for yet. Not because they dont know, but they just havemt had time to connect the dots.

These also can be some of the most obnoxious judgmental types. The "Look at me, I've known these things but you don't see me giving up!" attitude. Richard Bushman in some of his comments gives a bit of this attitude towards those who let clean living standards slip after learning the truth.

I was one of those know-it-and-choose-faith types. I think I managed to avoid being a douchebag because I knew that some historical things just didn't have a good explanation, and that the real history is a faith minefield. I had no desire to bring most of it up in the first place, not even to brag. And I kind of like to brag.

I like mooseman's characterization. I wouldn't say the reason I didn't put it together was because I was distracted, though. I was motivated. I had a lot riding on not noticing certain things and not combining certain bits of knowledge, so I didn't. Good thing, too. I probably wouldn't have finished my degree at BYU, for starters. I finally did at a time of life where a faith crisis would do comparatively little direct damage.

Thats exactly the type i meant. Once they hit Bushman type i know better than you bragging, ita really type 2 [full on apologist] and that motivation is what was distracting you. To use the 6th sense again, we miss the twist because the movie motivates us to think bruce willis is helping the kid. We dont connect the dots because we're so motivated so stay in due to social/edcuational/ect issues we get blind sided once they do connect. If we werent motivated, the "twist" isnt as shocking.

[Rob4Hope]

To use the 6th sense again, we miss the twist because the movie motivates us to think bruce willis is helping the kid. We dont connect the dots because we're so motivated so stay in due to social/edcuational/ect issues we get blind sided once they do connect. If we werent motivated, the "twist" isnt as shocking.

What a GOOD analogy!

[Hagoth]

I think there is another group.
I think there are a lot of people who are well read on issues, those who "choose faith" that it just hasnt clicked for yet because they are too busy in the church and run too many distractions to put it together and are missing a couple pieces. Kind of like the 6th sense: you watch it/live it and its amazing. All the clues are there but you just dont see it...until you do. Then its so obvious you feel stupid you didnt see it before...and if you suffer through 100 viewings you find yourself wondering what you ever thought of it.

I think there are a lot of members it just hasnt clicked for yet. Not because they dont know, but they just havemt had time to connect the dots.

You're right. That's probably a large segment of the membership. It's kind of like suspecting that your eating habits might not be good for you, but the food you eat is tasty, filling and cheap, and you really don't want to to take the time to study the negatives of something that seems to be working so well for you. It could lead to a lot of disappointment and an unwanted change of lifestyle. And it would affect the places and events you go to, who you eat lunch with, etc. And then you'd have to eat differently from the rest of your family, which could lead to all kinds of strife. Like that, but magnified 100X.

[shadow]

you have to be prepared to either keep your situation secret or be villainized by the people who reside in states 1 and 2 who will reinvent your hard-earned humility as a particularly nasty form of pride.

This rings so true. Admitting that I was wrong is somehow prideful. Ugh.