Church apologizes for Racism!

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moksha
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by moksha » Wed May 23, 2018 10:01 am

Jeffret wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 9:25 am
... [but Streeter’s approach] was nothing short of manipulative, self-centered and disingenuous.”
Sounds a bit like blaming the camera guy who brought the picture into focus.
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Not Buying It
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by Not Buying It » Wed May 23, 2018 10:27 am

the Legacy Committee found little solace in Streeter’s words.

It is “a performance common to many white progressives,” the group wrote in an email, “particularly those affiliated with the LDS Church.”

The group also had harsh words for “media publications that gave Mr. Streeter a platform for his harmful rhetoric,” the statement said. “It exacerbated the harm already experienced by members of the black Mormon community.”

The committee remains committed to “stand with those affected by [his] actions,” it said, “and to those who are doing the work of building Zion.”
I mean, really, let me get this straight: up until 1978 the Church kept black families from being forever families, kept black men from blessing their babies and baptizing their children, kept black men from blessing their sick children, kept blacks from the temple ordinances required for exaltation, and then after 1978 never once apologized, never once acknowledged the bigotry of these actions, pretended all was and always had been well. And the Legacy Committee is mad at Streeter for his satire saying the things they want to hear from the Church.

I say direct your anger where it belongs. Sure, Streeter picked an insensitive way of pointing out the Church has never apologized - but you ought to be way, way more mad at the Church that was so highly discriminatory, caused so much pain, and never apologized.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Wed May 23, 2018 10:33 am

Not Buying It wrote:
the Legacy Committee found little solace in Streeter’s words.

It is “a performance common to many white progressives,” the group wrote in an email, “particularly those affiliated with the LDS Church.”

The group also had harsh words for “media publications that gave Mr. Streeter a platform for his harmful rhetoric,” the statement said. “It exacerbated the harm already experienced by members of the black Mormon community.”

The committee remains committed to “stand with those affected by [his] actions,” it said, “and to those who are doing the work of building Zion.”
I mean, really, let me get this straight: up until 1978 the Church kept black families from being forever families, kept black men from blessing their babies and baptizing their children, kept black men from blessing their sick children, kept blacks from the temple ordinances required for exaltation, and then after 1978 never once apologized, never once acknowledged the bigotry of these actions, pretended all was and always had been well. And the Legacy Committee is mad at Streeter for his satire saying the things they want to hear from the Church.

I say direct your anger where it belongs. Sure, Streeter picked an insensitive way of pointing out the Church has never apologized - but you ought to be way, way more mad at the Church that was so highly discriminatory, caused so much pain, and never apologized.
Severe cognitive dissonance causes strange behavior. They wanted to believe it so bad, they felt the spirit, cried with happiness and then had the rug pulled out from under them in a massive shock to the psyche. In order to retain the worldview they are lashing out.

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Jeffret
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by Jeffret » Wed May 23, 2018 11:25 am

I'm glad that Streeter recognized the problems caused by his actions. Whether there are also harms caused by another entity, such as the Church, is not entirely exculpatory. As someone who is not a member of the community most impacted by his "satire", neither Streeter nor I really get a voice to say in how the Church's or his actions impacted an oppressed minority group. In a significant way, Streeter was using an oppressed minority group to accomplish his aims. The fact that he was trying to help that group doesn't excuse the impact of his actions. If a member of a minority group had done something similar that would be a different story. When someone else does, that crosses a different line.

It really isn't our responsibility to determine how others should feel about the Church. It isn't our place to say who they should be upset at or what reaction they should have. We don't get to say that they should just cheer on Streeter and blame the Church. It certainly isn't a matter of who or what entity has the greater guilt. As Vranes said, that just amounts to using the experiences of others to further our own aims. They get to own their experiences and situations, not us.
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And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Jeffret
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by Jeffret » Wed May 23, 2018 11:31 am

moksha wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 10:01 am
Sounds a bit like blaming the camera guy who brought the picture into focus.
That's certainly not an excuse. There are many instances of the picture being exploitative, whether it was taken for that purpose or used that way subsequently. Many oppressed minorities are well accustomed to how a picture or portrayal is used in an exploitative manner, to show them in a negative light or merely to depict their oppressed situation as natural to those in that group. In times gone by, National Geographic had a really problem with that. White nudity was prohibited, but black or indigenous nudity was fine for publication, as those that were depicted were considered less than fully human.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Jeffret
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by Jeffret » Wed May 23, 2018 11:39 am

And can anyone explain clearly just how Streeter's work constitutes either satire or parody?

Other than the one little note at the bottom, his page was clearly intended to be mistaken for an official page of the Church. There are none of the satirical elements used by The Onion, Borowitz, or other similar masters of the genre. Streeters work is intended to be taken at face value and to be mistaken for something else.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Not Buying It
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by Not Buying It » Wed May 23, 2018 12:05 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 11:25 am
I'm glad that Streeter recognized the problems caused by his actions. Whether there are also harms caused by another entity, such as the Church, is not entirely exculpatory. As someone who is not a member of the community most impacted by his "satire", neither Streeter nor I really get a voice to say in how the Church's or his actions impacted an oppressed minority group. In a significant way, Streeter was using an oppressed minority group to accomplish his aims. The fact that he was trying to help that group doesn't excuse the impact of his actions. If a member of a minority group had done something similar that would be a different story. When someone else does, that crosses a different line.

It really isn't our responsibility to determine how others should feel about the Church. It isn't our place to say who they should be upset at or what reaction they should have. We don't get to say that they should just cheer on Streeter and blame the Church. It certainly isn't a matter of who or what entity has the greater guilt. As Vranes said, that just amounts to using the experiences of others to further our own aims. They get to own their experiences and situations, not us.
I don’t think there is anything wrong in pointing out the inconsistencies in black Mormons being upset at Streeter but not being upset at the Church. Sure, we don’t get to tell people how they feel, but when they express what seems to be inconsistent or illogical views, calling them on it is fair game.

I would also disagree that “as someone who is not a member of the community most impacted by his "satire", neither Streeter nor I really get a voice to say in how the Church's or his actions impacted an oppressed minority group”. For example, if every black slave had been as cool with slavery as some Southerners claim they were, it still wouldn’t preclude non-blacks from condemning the injustice of it. If an oppressed minority group doesn’t recognize how they were or are impacted by something, that doesn’t mean the rest of us have to shut up about it. Whether they recognize it or not, black Mormons were wronged by the Church and are still being wronged by the Church, and if they don’t recognize it, that doesn’t mean I have to sit on my hands until they decide they are upset about it.

Also, Streeter has been called out for using black Mormons as “pawns”, but wasn’t the Church using the NAACP as pawns in their recent meeting and announcement? “Oh, hey, look how not-racist we are, we met with the NAACP and they said the meeting was ‘God-assisted’, look at how we are the greatest friend the black community ever had in advance of our celebration of 40 years of treating black members like other members”. Shall we talk about who is using the black community for its own ends?
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by MoPag » Wed May 23, 2018 12:10 pm

I'd like to share some things about "streetergate" and what I learned from the black TBMs in my life.

I cried tears of joy when I first read the apology and thought it was real. I thought of all the Black TBMs in my life and how elated they must be. I thought this might lead to changes for other marginalized groups in the church like our LGBT+ brothers and sisters and for women in the church too. I was really happy for about 10 minutes before I caught on that it was fake. Then I felt sad but not really surprised. I mean I should have known right? I didn't stop to think about to emotional sucker punch this was going to be for Black TBMs. I got on FB and started scrolling and I was like "What? Why are they so pissed? This is what the church should say!! Why aren't they embracing this? Why all the anger?"

That is when I had to chose to either answer anger with anger, or put my feelings, perspective and experiences aside and try to learn from those who were most hurt by this.

They are hurt. Very hurt. We all understand that the church is at the root of this trauma. They are still TBM and are going to avoid that conclusion at all costs. We all need to remember what it was like to be TBM and all the crazy-a$$ metal gymnastics we did to maintain our world view. (like FFM said in his post) They are still doing that. As much as we would love for them to wake up, call the church out on it's mountains of racist bullsh!t and join us, they are not at that part of their faith journey yet. We HAVE to respect this as we process their reactions to streetergate.

Streeter is not a black Mormon. He doesn't have first hand knowledge of the pain black TBMs experience because of the church. I bet he knows a lot about the pain that we as non-blacks in the post-mo community have experienced at the hands of the church. But he doesn't know THEIR pain. They felt very disrespected that a man who didn't understand their pain would use their pain in the way he did. We know his intent was to stop the church from causing that pain. They (see above paragraph) can't see it like that because they are still TBM.

I don't think Streeter is a bad person. I believe his intentions were good when he wrote this. I don't believe for one second he intended to cause the pain that he caused. In fact I truly believe he was trying to stop pain. And yet here we are. It's just a sucky situation.
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believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Jeffret
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by Jeffret » Wed May 23, 2018 12:22 pm

MoPag wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 12:10 pm
I'd like to share some things about "streetergate" and what I learned from the black TBMs in my life.
Excellent post, Mopag.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Jeffret
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by Jeffret » Wed May 23, 2018 12:24 pm

Let me try a different tack, for those of you who think Streeter did no wrong.

What are you upset about regarding the Church in this situation? What is your stake in it?
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Not Buying It
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by Not Buying It » Wed May 23, 2018 12:48 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 12:24 pm
Let me try a different tack, for those of you who think Streeter did no wrong.

What are you upset about regarding the Church in this situation? What is your stake in it?
“Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.”


― Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from the Birmingham Jail
What is my stake in it? The Church was wrong, horribly, destructively, harmfully wrong in the way it treated blacks before 1978. Yet it seeks to convince myself, my wife, and and my children that it did no wrong and can do no wrong. It perpetuates an idea that God was a racist and that the treatment of blacks before 1978 was somehow justifiable, and I find that morally repugnant beyond words.

This has a direct impact on the moral compass of people I love dearly. Could I turn away and pretend this doesn’t affect me, that I don’t have a horse in the race, that it really isn’t any of my business? Honestly, I’m not sure I could.

So when I see black Mormons excoriate Streeter but give the Church that harmed them a pass, yeah, I am going to speak up about it. I’ll admit, I should have been way more sensitive to their feelings in what I have said in this thread, MoPag has some good points. But it is wrong for them to direct all the criticism, angst, anger, bitterness, and feelings of betrayal at Streeter, when he didn’t cause any of the Church’s mess in race relations.

You are a smart guy Jeffret, I have been reading your posts for years here. But I do not agree that it is unfair to point out the inconsistencies in what some black members are expressing about this, nor do I think it fair for them to bring the hammer down on Streeter when he isn’t really what is causing what they are feeling, whether they realize it or not.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Not Buying It
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by Not Buying It » Wed May 23, 2018 12:54 pm

P.S. Anyone who says that NOM is just an echo chamber needs to read this discussion. Does it bother me that not everyone agrees with me? Hell no! I’m glad there are different viewpoints here, and I recognize that mine isn’t always as right as I think it is.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Jeffret
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by Jeffret » Wed May 23, 2018 1:17 pm

Let me separate one thing out. I'm not discussing whether we have a right, legally, morally, or ethically, to criticize the Church for its actions. We certainly do. While there are some criticisms of the Church that I think are unjustified I don't think that is in any way the case here. We are free to criticize the Church and justified in doing so. Justified in criticisms with regards to the Church's original behaviors, the way it changed them, and the way it continues to fail to address its problems. That's not what concerns me in this case at all. If that were what Streeter had done, I doubt there would have been issues raised nor would anyone have requested an apology.

Next, are we in agreement that neither you nor I are directly impacted by the Church's actions and statements in this area? (Not to say that we aren't impacted by the Church's behavior in any number of other areas.)

If so, can we come to an agreement on who is actually directly impacted?
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And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Jeffret
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by Jeffret » Wed May 23, 2018 1:21 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 1:17 pm
Next, are we in agreement that neither you nor I are directly impacted by the Church's actions and statements in this area? (Not to say that we aren't impacted by the Church's behavior in any number of other areas.)
Most importantly, nor is Streeter directly impacted.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Not Buying It
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!p

Post by Not Buying It » Wed May 23, 2018 1:33 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 1:17 pm
Next, are we in agreement that neither you nor I are directly impacted by the Church's actions and statements in this area? (Not to say that we aren't impacted by the Church's behavior in any number of other areas.)
Well, no, I respectfully disagree that I am not directly impacted in this area. I agree 100% that I am not directly impacted in the same way black members are, and I would never say that I am. But what the Church teaches and promotes affects the way my friends and family think - and when I interact with them I am directly impacted. When the Church sends the message that it need not apologize for the wrongs it has done blacks in the past because there were no wrongs, people I know and love get the idea those wrongs were OK and justifiable. I don’t want my children growing up thinking that was OK. It would do severe harm to their sense of moral reasoning. When black members vilify Streeter and ignore the Church’s role in what they feel, it reinforces that message that the Church did no wrong.

I am not impacted in the same way black members are, and have no right be offended in the same way they might be, having not experienced the same injustice myself. But none of this happened in a vacuum, and there are still direct impacts to me, albeit different than the ones my black brothers and sisters experience.

Ideas have consequences. Words have power. And when the Church uses ideas and words to any extent to attempt to justify, rationalize, or simply forget about its treatment of blacks, my world is directly impacted.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by jfro18 » Wed May 23, 2018 2:04 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if the church made some sort of overture that the 'Be One' event... I don't know if they can afford to give a direct apology though without throwing practically every prophet under the bus.

Isn't that what it really comes down to? You either have to continue to insist you have nothing to be ashamed for, or you have to admit that the prophets that were there at the founding of the church (in this case Joseph Smith gets a tiny pass although he did write book of abraham which sparked the whole thing) were going against God.

They can't win, and they shouldn't be able to win - this is their mess to live with, and no amount of sugarcoating can erase them being behind the world in treating black people like soulless animals.

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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by wtfluff » Wed May 23, 2018 2:09 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 11:25 am
As someone who is not a member of the community most impacted by his "satire", neither Streeter nor I really get a voice to say in how the Church's or his actions impacted an oppressed minority group.
MoPag wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 12:10 pm
Streeter is not a black Mormon. He doesn't have first hand knowledge of the pain black TBMs experience because of the church. I bet he knows a lot about the pain that we as non-blacks in the post-mo community have experienced at the hands of the church. But he doesn't know THEIR pain. They felt very disrespected that a man who didn't understand their pain would use their pain in the way he did. We know his intent was to stop the church from causing that pain. They (see above paragraph) can't see it like that because they are still TBM.
I keep seeing statements similar to those quoted above, which I am interpreting as: Streeter didn't have the right to do what he did because he is not black.

Which leads me to: NONE of the Q15 are black. Does that mean the Q15 do not have the right to apologize for the church's racism, because they have not been on the receiving end of that racism?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Jeffret
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by Jeffret » Wed May 23, 2018 2:29 pm

Not Buying It, I've read your latest response multiple times but I've still been unable to detect any way in which you've been directly impacted by the Church's racist policies or refusal to apologize. You've described ways in which you're indirectly impacted. Or ways in which you're impacted generally by the Church's actions or by other actions. But I can't detect a specific harm from this action.


----
This is related to why Prop 8 failed at the Supreme Court. Prop 8 failed in district court because it was demonstrated it clearly illegally discriminated. There were no other justifications offered. That ruling was upheld in the appellate court, because it was the right thing to do and the appellate court played games to give the Prop 8 proponents standing. SCOTUS ruled that the appellate court should never have heard the case because the Prop 8 proponents, who argued the case in favor of Prop 8, did not validly have standing. What that means is that they were not able to demonstrate any reasonable way of establishing any direct harm they faced by overturning Prop 8. The fact that they ran the campaign to pass Prop 8 didn't establish direct harm. They argued that allowing gay marriage would destroy society and harm their marriages, but they could not demonstrate any direct cause.
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And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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jfro18
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by jfro18 » Wed May 23, 2018 2:31 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 2:09 pm
I keep seeing statements similar to those quoted above, which I am interpreting as: Streeter didn't have the right to do what he did because he is not black.

Which leads me to: NONE of the Q15 are black. Does that mean the Q15 do not have the right to apologize for the church's racism, because they have not been on the receiving end of that racism?
I think that the general idea is that Streeter doesn't have the right to do a parody of an apology to blacks because he's not black and can't possibly understand how they feel... not that an apology from a white person would not be welcomed.

It's a crazy situation - when I first saw the parody I thought nothing about how blacks would feel reading it just because I don't identify that way so it just didn't cross my mind. I can clearly see now why that would bring up some raw emotions only to find out it was a joke. So I totally get that - and sadly Streeter probably was more focused in the way that we mostly are here - that the church has brought so much pain and anguish to so many because they have a foundation of dishonesty that continues to catch up with them, but they continue to want it both ways.

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Jeffret
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by Jeffret » Wed May 23, 2018 2:42 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 2:09 pm
I keep seeing statements similar to those quoted above, which I am interpreting as: Streeter didn't have the right to do what he did because he is not black.
The term "right" as used here is a fuzzy concept. Legally he may have had the right. I can't see how his actions are protected by parody, satire, or fair use. He intended to create something that makes false claims. He used the Church's trademarks without permissions. Generally satire and parody have to be reasonably distinguished from the original. For example Wacky Packages look like standard American consumer products of their day, but after more than the simplest cursory look they're radically different. So, maybe he has a legal right, but at best I think it's on shaky ground.

As for morally or ethically, we first have to establish the framework before we could determine whether he has that right.

(It's really not about rights.)
wtfluff wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 2:09 pm
Which leads me to: NONE of the Q15 are black. Does that mean the Q15 do not have the right to apologize for the church's racism, because they have not been on the receiving end of that racism?
Not in the least. You've got it turned around. The Q15 are the ones who are to blame for the Church's continued misbehavior on race. They are the inheritors of the organization that caused the earlier discrimination. Given the Church's hierarchical structure they are the only with the actual right to apologize in the name of the Church. You and I can apologize on our own behalf. The owners of NOM could apologize on the forum's behalf. Only the Church's top leaders have the responsibility to do so. The harm or the cause is laid directly at their feet. And we're quite within our rights to criticize them for not having done so.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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