NOM

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Tue May 22, 2018 10:07 am

IT_Veteran wrote: ↑

Tue May 22, 2018 8:21 am

The children allowance, if I had to guess, is probably BYU tuition for his kids/grandkids/great grandkids.

No, there is actually a monthly allowance paid for each child in addition to education costs. Here's a letter via MormonLeaks in which a GA is informed of an adjustment to his child allowance:

https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/5 ... -06-07.pdf

Thanks for posting this, I was unaware of it. Interesting that a child moving to a non-dependent status only changed his allowance by $97.

Also, despite it being described as a stipend, modest living allowance, or anything else - the church still refers to it as a pay period. That seems like more employee terminology than anything else. If there's ever any question about the corporate nature of the church, things like this really serve as a reminder.

Two things. First, based on podcasts I've watched and conversations with former seventies, GA's definitely pay tithing on their income. The Q-15, however, do not necessarily have incomes as they are completed supported by the church. They are given housing, travel expenses, etc. The 70's, in contrast, are still working regular jobs (if they aren't retired). If they have income, they are expected to pay tithing.

Second thing: was Mary Fielding Smith sealed to hyrum? Then later sealed to Kimball, or just became another one of his plural wives?

IT_Veteran wrote: ↑

Tue May 22, 2018 11:07 am

Interesting that a child moving to a non-dependent status only changed his allowance by $97.

Yes, I was surprised by that too. Either this guy has 40 kids or the "child allowance" is just another form of income that has an additional $100 per kid tacked onto it. This "child allowance" adds up to over $50,000, assuming a monthly pay period. If it's a bi-montly, like most people, this guy is making an additional $100,000+ in addition to his $120K stipend and whatever other perks he's getting. Not too shabby for an unpaid clergyman.

Or am I reading this wrong and it's saying that his overall stipend has been reduced by $97? In that case, and assuming bi-monthy paychecks, he was making a stipend of $100K in 2011, which might look more like $120K today with cost of living increases, plus all of the other perks.

Cnsl1 wrote: ↑

Tue May 22, 2018 11:32 am

The 70's, in contrast, are still working regular jobs (if they aren't retired). If they have income, they are expected to pay tithing.

The first quorum of Seventy are on the payroll. The 2nd and 3rd are not, as far as I know.

Cnsl1 wrote: ↑

Tue May 22, 2018 11:32 am

Two things. First, based on podcasts I've watched and conversations with former seventies, GA's definitely pay tithing on their income. The Q-15, however, do not necessarily have incomes as they are completed supported by the church. They are given housing, travel expenses, etc. The 70's, in contrast, are still working regular jobs (if they aren't retired). If they have income, they are expected to pay tithing.

Ah, so it's all about semantics, and re-definition of words eh?

I just had a revelation: The definition of my paycheck is now "stipend". POOF! I'm a full tithe payer!

This is such an astonishingly terrible story for one additional reason. Wasn't "taking care of widows" one the primary excuses for plural marriage? This is not just any widow. It's the widow of Hyrum Smith who stayed way more faithful than Emma Smith.

This story reminded me a bit about the Heber J. Grant stories I was taught in primary a lot growing up. The one about the coat and him throwing the ball against the wall a million times. The detail I remember the most about those stories was how his mother was so poor and worked so hard. That detail is true, but it wasn't until a few years ago I got the rest of the story.

Rachel Ivins (Heber's mom) was uncomfortable when Joseph Smith offered her a chance to be his plural wife. She never accepted, and moved back to N.J. after Joseph's death. She moved to Utah years later, and she married Jedediah Grant and became his 7th wife. He died a year after the marriage, and she was left with baby Heber. Brigham Young urged her and some other of Jedediah's plural wives to marry Jedediah's brother George. Rachel did in hopes of security, but George was an alcoholic and abusive man. The marriage was dissolved by Brigham Young two years later, and Rachel moved to her own place and had to make her own way in life living in poverty for years.

Now, I don't think that primary children should get all of those details, but it certainly gave me a new perspective on Heber's coat and ball stories in terms of sacrifice and determination of his mother. Same goes with Mary Fielding Smith and all she had to put up with in the years following Hyrum's death.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑

Sun May 20, 2018 7:45 pm

She wasn’t poor because she didn’t have a husband - she was poor because she had to keep her marriage secret because polygamy was secret at the time, and her deadbeat husband Heber had more wives than he could support (eventually marrying 43).

So I guess D&C 83:2

"Women have claim on their husbands for their maintenance..."

is/was of no efficacy when it comes to church leadership....? I suppose Heber learned from the great example Joseph set, seeing he didn’t take care of his wives either.

Aren't there some temple recommend questions dealing with ex-spouse and child support? But those questions probably weren't being asked back in those days when such things weren't as important.

Cnsl1 wrote: ↑

Tue May 22, 2018 11:32 am

Second thing: was Mary Fielding Smith sealed to hyrum? Then later sealed to Kimball, or just became another one of his plural wives?

Early Church leaders laid claim to many of Joseph’s plural wives after his death, but the marriages were only for time, Joseph would have them in the eternities. It was probably similar for Mary Fielding Smith, Heber C. Kimball, and Hyrum. Brother Brigham got his fair share of Joseph’s wives (Eliza R. Snow, Zina Huntington Jacobs, Louisa Beaman), Heber C. Kimball got Presendia Hunginton Buell, Lucy Walker, Nancy Winchester, and Martha McBride Knight, and George Albert Smith got Agnes Coolbrith Smith (see http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/PDFBo ... ooklet.pdf).

Note that being a plural wife was associated with poverty a lot of the time, even Brigham’s wives had to fend for themselves sometimes. It is a sick and cruel irony that the myth has sprung up in the Church that polygamy was instituted to take care of widowed women, because so many of them got so little care and support from their so-called husbands.