Church seeks MTC case to be dismissed

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
Post Reply
User avatar
moksha
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Church seeks MTC case to be dismissed

Post by moksha » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:53 pm

The LDS Church has asked the court to toss the rape case against the MTC president due to the statute of limitations.

The lawyers from Ms. Dennison said the time limit for filing only started with her gathering a confession from President Bishop.

The Church is arguing that the deadline is not postponed until a plaintiff has evidence the defendant knew the representation was false, he said. Instead, “Denson knew by at least early 1984 that Mr. Bishop was not ‘safe, honorable, and trustworthy,’”. “Accordingly, the three-year statute of limitations for her fraud claim began to run at that time. Thus, Ms. Denson’s fraud claims expired in early 1987 — over 30 years ago.”

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/05/16/ ... t-of-rape/
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

User avatar
Palerider
Posts: 2235
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:44 am

Re: Church seeks MTC case to be dismissed

Post by Palerider » Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:17 pm

So let's see.....

Does the church love justice and defending those who cannot defend themselves?

Or do they love the intricacies of the law and protecting the church, right or wrong?

What would the Savior do?
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: Church seeks MTC case to be dismissed

Post by moksha » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:30 pm

The most interesting point to this argument is that because Bishop was clearly guilty back in 1984, the statute of limitations expired in 1987. Therefore the Church is off the hook in terms of responsibility.

Kirton McConkie is able to shift the tectonic plates of past arguments that Bishop was not guilty to one in which his guilt was well known in 1984. Quite a remarkable feat.

Of course, if the Church does not get its dismissal, Kirton McConkie will shift its legal tectonic plates back into a stonewall position. Besides, the members will never even notice or care.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

User avatar
Rob4Hope
Posts: 1359
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:43 pm
Location: Salt Lake City -- the Motherland!!

Re: Church seeks MTC case to be dismissed

Post by Rob4Hope » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:52 pm

I am, unfortunately, of the opinion that this is gunna get dismissed. HOWEVER (and this is the hopeful part), I hope other victims come forward because this is not isolated, and there are policies in place by the church to protect the church, regardless of the damage it causes.

oldsoul
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:08 pm

Re: Church seeks MTC case to be dismissed

Post by oldsoul » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:50 pm

Is it possible to know the truth? At first I was sure he had done this because of the police report where he says that he asked to see her breast. But then I noticed he made this last report last year. Why does this now make me question if it happened at all? Joe Bishop is 85 and has dementia that's why. I've know him for 50 years, and 10 years ago I was in a business meeting with him and was shocked to see a very trusting, and naïve man, not the man I used to know at all. He had a hearing problem and I could not have a coherent conversation with him and could tell that he could be easily manipulated and I felt concerned that he may be in over his head in any business situation. I have a step father who has dementia and Alzheimer's and just recently we had to stop him from driving and He agrees with everyone about anything, yet appears in the moment and cohesive. As I was listening to the tape of Bishop and Mc Kenna, the word dementia came to mind. Now if he did have these problems, I also see a big flaw with the churches interview process in that they ask in interviews if there is anything that is not in keeping with the lords commandments that has not already been resolved that needs to be addressed. Obviously anyone can lie to anyone, and if he is assaulting or perhaps having in his mind consensual petting, well that's clearly sinning and unless he lied about it, he would have been released from his calling and job and stripped of his recommend. Joe and his wife Carolyn took my family into their home when I was 14, and helped us get on our feet., this was in 1974. I was a very beautiful womanly built teen and nothing happened to me, nor did I feel creeped out. But that's just my first hand experience. I know Joe had dementia 10 years ago, that's also my first hand experience, and wether he did something or not, I simply have no clue. I know that when my father molested my daughter, I was a young 22 and went to the police and reported it that night, bought a gun with bullets, got a blessing, saw my bishop. I disowned my father, I went to 6 church leaders and reported this. 1 told me to forgive and forget, 1 called me a liar, 1 told me to forgive, however follow through with legal action, and never forget because these crimes were too risky for repeat behavior and to warn my family members and others, and one did nothing, the area representative chastised the stake president that called me a liar, another meet with me, gave me and my daughter a blessing, and told me to call the police which I had already done. Of course I feel that I have my very own communication with God and I'm not the sort of person to ask someone else to tell me what to do when I have direct communication. I don't believe anyone just because they say something did or did not happen either.

Ben Davis
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:46 am

Re: Church seeks MTC case to be dismissed

Post by Ben Davis » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:09 am

I can see your point of view. I have my opinions about what happened but equally important to me is the way the “official” (COB?) church is handling the situation.

User avatar
Dravin
Posts: 402
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:04 am
Location: Indiana

Re: Church seeks MTC case to be dismissed

Post by Dravin » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:05 am

Because don't we all know the famous JST version of Matthew 5:40 -
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, motion that his demand for your coat is expired.
Hindsight is all well and good... until you trip.

User avatar
Not Buying It
Posts: 1308
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:29 pm

Re: Church seeks MTC case to be dismissed

Post by Not Buying It » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:30 am

Someone who actually knows Joseph Bishop is in a better position to assess his character and current mental state than I am. I will say that honorable conduct in many settings does not preclude dishonorable conduct in other settings, and the most dangerous predators are those that carefully maintain an aura of respectability. Ms. Dennison is also at a considerable disadvantage in this case, in that the majority of Utah is predisposed to believe a former Church leader over a mere woman.

But setting aside questions of guilt or innocence, the Church's behavior towards Ms. Dennison has been atrocious. They aren’t arguing it didn't happen - they are arguing it happened long enough ago we shouldn’t worry about it. This after paying lawyers to dig up dirt on Ms. Dennison and handing it over to Bishop’s son so he could publicly drag her name through the mud.

Even if Bishop were innocent, the way the Church has handled this is disgusting, and far from what a Church led by Christ would really do in this situation.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

User avatar
alas
Posts: 2357
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: Church seeks MTC case to be dismissed

Post by alas » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:26 am

As we are wondering whether to believe the woman claiming she was molested, or the man claiming innocence, who we personally know to be good, kind, bla bla bla, rememberthat more than one woman has accused this man. Even if he does seem to have dementia, there are two women that we know of who are saying he molested them. And remember, that just because you did not see that side of him, doesn’t mean it was not there. Just that you never saw it. I have a stupid sister in law who “never saw” that side of my father and decided not to protect her children from someone who molested his two daughters. She dis not believe it because she saw the “good, kind, bla bla bla” man who would never hurt anyone. Sex perpetrators do not molest EVERYONE, so just because you were not victimized doesn’t mean others were not. And this man’s victim profile is not children or well developed 14 year olds, but 19 year old women that he has *power* over. His is a power thing, not pedophilia or adolescents or women off the street, but women he could use his position of power to make cooperate with his sexual program.

User avatar
wtfluff
Posts: 3629
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:20 pm
Location: Worshiping Gravity / Pulling Taffy

Re: Church seeks MTC case to be dismissed

Post by wtfluff » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:53 am

oldsoul wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:50 pm
Is it possible to know the truth?
Maybe, maybe not, but we can definitely look at evidence.

As Alas mentioned, more than one victim has come forward. There are also multiple witnesses to the alleged room where the misdeeds took place.

Whether or not Bishop has dementia now, has nothing to do with his actions 40 years ago.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

User avatar
Yobispo
Posts: 208
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:35 pm

Re: Church seeks MTC case to be dismissed

Post by Yobispo » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:53 am

I listened to the entire recording. I didn't hear a man struggling with dementia.

dogbite
Posts: 581
Joined: Tue May 30, 2017 1:28 pm
Location: SLC

Re: Church seeks MTC case to be dismissed

Post by dogbite » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:22 am

Attorneys will make a motion for dismissal on every thing they can come up with. It's part of their ethical duty under our adversarial law system. It helps keep the system as just as we know how to make it. Indeed failure to rigorously pursuse such avenues can lead to mis-trials, re-trials or punsihments to the attorney for failure to do their job.

Don't read too much into motions for dismissal.

User avatar
Corsair
Posts: 3080
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:58 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: Church seeks MTC case to be dismissed

Post by Corsair » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:03 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:30 am
But setting aside questions of guilt or innocence, the Church's behavior towards Ms. Dennison has been atrocious. They aren’t arguing it didn't happen - they are arguing it happened long enough ago we shouldn’t worry about it. This after paying lawyers to dig up dirt on Ms. Dennison and handing it over to Bishop’s son so he could publicly drag her name through the mud.
This is just the latest incident where I have held my tongue in front of far too many believing friends and family as the church acts like an amoral corporation and not like the divine church they insist we treat them as. It's the same feeling I got in November 2015 and dozens of other times since long before my testimony collapsed. At the extreme risk of trivializing this situation, this is largely how I feel:

Image

I simply don't feel bad about lying on my temple recommend interview. The institutional church has a lot 'splaining to do before I come clean with them also.

User avatar
1smartdodog
Posts: 510
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:51 pm

Re: Church seeks MTC case to be dismissed

Post by 1smartdodog » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:24 am

It is my experience that when two sides dig in the truth lies somewhere in the middle and is almost always obscured by the name calling.
“Five percent of the people think; ten percent of the people think they think; and the other eighty-five percent would rather die than think.”
― Thomas A. Edison

User avatar
Just This Guy
Posts: 1514
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:30 pm
Location: Almost Heaven

Re: Church seeks MTC case to be dismissed

Post by Just This Guy » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:27 pm

If he does have dementia, he is still pretty lucid. There are plenty of examples in the leaked interview that he was able to properly and correctly fill in details of things that happened many years ago, so his memory isn't that bad.

He may be a good person to some people, but he had some MAJOR skeletons in his closet and is not a good person to those.

1. He has ADMITTED that he molested and abused Ms. Denson and other women. Even basic actions are admitted to in the police reports.
2. He has a documented records of immorality and the church having to take steps because of it.
3. A number of key details of the story have been corroborated by outside witnesses. (Other women having been attacked by him, the existence of the 'rape room', etc.)

At this point, there is no question that he messed with her and other women. The question is what did the church do to cover it up, how many other victims are there for Mr. Bishop, and what is the liability of the church for covering his actions.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

User avatar
Archimedes
Posts: 244
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:22 am

Re: Church seeks MTC case to be dismissed

Post by Archimedes » Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:36 pm

Palerider wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:17 pm
What would the Savior do?
In most cases, a better predictor of the actions of church leadership is not "WWJD," but "What would the CEO of the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of the CoJCoLDS do"?
"She never loved you; she loved the church, her one true love. She used you to marry the church by proxy."

-- unknown reddit poster

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: Church seeks MTC case to be dismissed

Post by moksha » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:17 pm

I imagine if this was at some location outside the Jell-O Belt, a judge would let this case go to trial.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

User avatar
RubinHighlander
Posts: 1906
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:20 am
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Re: Church seeks MTC case to be dismissed

Post by RubinHighlander » Fri May 10, 2019 12:50 pm

At least there's one judge out there who is at least trying to make it look like TSCC is accountable to this:

https://www.ksl.com/article/46549785/ut ... ssionaries
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: Church seeks MTC case to be dismissed

Post by moksha » Fri May 10, 2019 11:16 pm

Flightless Bird wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:30 pm
The most interesting point to this argument is that because Bishop was clearly guilty back in 1984, the statute of limitations expired in 1987. Therefore the Church is off the hook in terms of responsibility.
Kirton McConkie's legal argument leaves open the question of why the Church continued to employ a man who was clearly guilty and cover up his crimes for so many years.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 38 guests