Is this GC Story a Fake? Nautical Knowledge Required

[consiglieri]

I need some help with those who know more about ships than I.

Specifically, I am wanting to know whether the propellers of United States Transport Ships used in the Korean War would extend beyond the stern of the ship.

I have been doing what research I can, and it looks to me like naval ships are designed so that propellers do NOT extend beyond the stern of the ship. This makes sense to me because going into port with propellers extending beyond the stern is just asking for trouble; to get hit and bumped and bent and broken much more than would be necessary if they were placed under the stern of the ship.

And the photos and models I have been able to view puts the propellers where I would expect them to be; i.e., UNDER the stern of the ship instead of extending out beyond the stern.

The reason for my uncharacteristic interest in this arcane piece of Korean War naval minutia is because it figures prominently in the one miracle story told in last April's General Conference; by Elder Larry Wilson in the first talk of the Sunday morning session.

The entire story is suspicious enough to me, but if propellers do not extent beyond the stern, it is an obvious fake.

I expect his may be an easy question to answer by those with nautical knowledge, but I would like to be sure about this before I make any kind of public comment on the issue.

Here is the story, with the part that requires propellers to extend past the stern of a transport ship underlined:

Ensign Blair wrote: “Our ship was caught in a huge typhoon. The waves were about 45 feet [14 m] high. I was on watch … during which time one of our three engines stopped working and a crack in the centerline of the ship was reported. We had two remaining engines, one of which was only functioning at half power. We were in serious trouble.”
Ensign Blair finished his watch and was getting into bed when the captain knocked on his door. He asked, “Would you please pray for this ship?” Of course, Ensign Blair agreed to do so.

At that point, Ensign Blair could have simply prayed, “Heavenly Father, please bless our ship and keep us safe,” and then gone to bed. Instead, he prayed to know if there was something he could do to help ensure the safety of the ship. In response to Brother Blair’s prayer, the Holy Ghost prompted him to go to the bridge, speak with the captain, and learn more. He found that the captain was trying to determine how fast to run the ship’s remaining engines. Ensign Blair returned to his cabin to pray again.

He prayed, “What can I do to help address the problem with the engines?”

In response, the Holy Ghost whispered that he needed to walk around the ship and observe to gather more information. He again returned to the captain and asked for permission to walk around the deck. Then, with a lifeline tied around his waist, he went out into the storm.

Standing on the stern, he observed the giant propellers as they came out of the water when the ship crested a wave. Only one was working fully, and it was spinning very fast. After these observations, Ensign Blair once again prayed. The clear answer he received was that the remaining good engine was under too much strain and needed to be slowed down. So he returned to the captain and made that recommendation. The captain was surprised, telling him that the ship’s engineer had just suggested the opposite—that they increase the speed of the good engine in order to outrun the storm. Nevertheless, the captain chose to follow Ensign Blair’s suggestion and slowed the engine down. By dawn the ship was safely in calm waters.

Only two hours later, the good engine stopped working altogether. With half power in the remaining engine, the ship was able to limp into port.

The captain said to Ensign Blair, “If we had not slowed that engine when we did, we would have lost it in the middle of the storm.”

Without that engine, there would have been no way to steer. The ship would have overturned and been sunk. The captain thanked the young LDS officer and said he believed that following Ensign Blair’s spiritual impressions had saved the ship and its crew.

If you have any other thoughts about what makes this story credible, or incredible, I am happy to hear about those, as well.

Thanks!

--Consiglieri

[Red Ryder]

If the story was made up then clearly the author who wrote this was thinking with knowledge of his wake board boat where the engine and prop are extended over the back of the boat. Oops!

If the story was true then why are you questioning the Holy Ghost's engineering capabilities?

Why didn't the HG just whisper in the ear of the Engineer or the Captain? Sloooooow dooooown the good engine. Slooooow dooooown!

We also have to remember the audience believes in wooden submarines tight unto a dish!

[Reuben]

Ensign Blair apparently didn't go to a very good ensign school. Ensign Crusher would have reversed the polarity of the main deflector dish to use it for propulsion.

More seriously, what would observing the propellers have had to do with anything? Blair already knew that one of the remaining engines was running at half power. Why would the HG need him to see that the other one was being driven hard to get him to think, "Hey, we should probably go easy on the good engine"? What a drama queen.

Why did the captain ask him to pray? Was he a chaplain? Or just an especially Mormony Mormon?

[EternityIsNow]

Due to the retracting shape of the rear of some ships, it is conceivable that looking down from the Stern could reveal if propellers were spinning, if the entire stern of the ship was breaching at the top of waves.

I have experienced things like this and know the stories are possible. Whether or not this particular story is exaggerated is unknown unless you can check the source. Humans have some pretty amazing sensitivities, that is universal. Nothing to do with Mormonism. Anyone can be sensitive to the subtle creative processes in the subconscious mind. We can solve many problems that way. Stress responses block those subtle thought processes where we can calmly review a situation and think through alternatives. A prayer or meditation can sometimes distract us from the stress of the moment and open our minds to possibilities we might not have thought of otherwise. I don't think we need to debunk every spiritual claim, just try to understand them better, try to get the real story before it was spun up into a religious testimonial, and point out these are universal human phenomenon and not requiring Mormonism.

My take on this one would be that the captain and engineer were panicking. They could not think clearly because the ship was in trouble and they were in the middle of a storm. The LDS crewmember was an intelligent, thoughtful person and his prayer ritual calmed his mind so he could evaluate the situation logically. He must have known enough to realize that the engines on the ship were in a fragile state, one was broken and one was not working well. Perhaps that was because they had been running too hard. Logically he realized they only need enough power to steer the ship into the wind And waves. So the safest course of action would be to preserve the working engine but keep it running fast enough to steer the ship. And delay trying to get back to port until the storm had passed. Basic logic. The story is about calming the mind to think through problems when under duress. No need to spin it to some religious purpose, just an interesting human story about the importance of calming the mind when under duress.

[moksha]

I would imagine the diameter of the blades behind the ship would be limited by the draft of the ship. This might be best answered by Hagoth who has nautical experience having sailed in the bathtub regatta.

I think EternityisNow is essentially correct about finding our still point of power, thus enabling our Mormon chakra in order to let our garments glow sufficiently so we can see things with our spiritual eyes. Guru Mitt Romney knew this to be true.

Ensign Blair might have known or seen with his spiritual eyes that lower RPMs increases efficiency and extends engine life.

[græy]

I think I remember reading/hearing a debunking of this story somewhere. I'll have to look around.

My take on this one would be that the captain and engineer were panicking. They could not think clearly because the ship was in trouble and they were in the middle of a storm.

While the story was being shared at GC I thought it sounded odd that a captain would give so much leeway and pay so much attention to the recommendation of an ensign, especially over contradictory advice form his engineer. Maybe they were panicking, but ship engineers are well trained to know exactly how the engines work including what breaks them and what loads they can handle. Captains are especially well trained and hand-picked to handle stressful situations exactly like this without panicking and cracking under the pressure. Ensigns are the most junior officer on the ship. They are, for all intents and purposes, just beginning basic naval training.

If the captain followed the ensign's advice over the engineer's and it had gone wrong, the captain would be severely disciplined (assuming he survived at all).

To me, the whole story sounds more like something the young Ensign Blair wrote to his mother and father after he was first deployed. He spruced up the details a bit and made sure to note, despite his thorough lack of training, how important he was on the ship to the captain, the engineer, and the entire crew, even to the point of saving the whole ship. I bet mom and dad were sure proud, and then went on themselves spreading the tale, exaggerating a few of the "details" themselves, until Elder Wilson decided to share it in GC.

Edit: I wanted to add, hopefully without doxing myself, that I work in a Naval defense research lab and do, on occasion, interact with Naval personal including captains and engineers.

Edit 2: I may be a bit too cynical, but I also get a little bit annoyed that neither the name of the ship, or the name of captain, are ever shared in the story. Purposely trying to make it harder to debunk?

[consiglieri]

Thanks everybody for your comments.

I am beginning to understand that maybe it could theoretically be possible to stand on the extreme edge of the side of the stern and get a glimpse at propellers coming out of the water in a very stormy sea, even with the propellers not protruding past the end of the stern.

So if we give that much to the story, I have a few other questions.

1. This obviously happened at night during a big storm. It would have been black as pitch out, which would have made the propellers hard to see, even if theoretically visible. Does that impact the credibility of the story?

2. The ship is already in the middle of a huge storm and yet the engineer is telling the captain to run the motors full tilt in an effort to outrun the storm? That doesn't make sense to me. Maybe if you weren't already in the storm you might try to outrun it. But once in the storm, wouldn't the proper practice be to steer the vessel into the wind?

3. There appear to be three engines; one of which is not working; one of which is half working and one of which is working. Does that mean there would be three propellers as well? Does that help to identify the ship?

4. The failure to provide the name of the captain or the ship smacks of withholding details in an apparent effort to prevent the story from being sabotaged.

5. If only one propeller is going much faster than the other, would that tend to make the ship go in a circle? Or would the rudder be able to take care of that? I am guessing the latter, but just throwing it out there.

6. It is clear on its face that the idea that the ship's captain taking the advice of his ensign over the engineer makes no sense. Or is this God working in mysterious ways?

7. The theology gets messy pretty fast. If this guy hadn't prayed, God would have drowned the entire shipload of sailors. And if this guy had just prayed for God to make the ship safe, God would have drowned the entire shipload of sailors. And if this guy had prayed only the first time and not followed up with several subsequent prayers, and actions, God would have drowned the entire shipload of sailors. This story seems to be a lot more about highlighting the righteousness of the ensign than it is about God giving a damn about the sailors. Isn't this the same God who told the storm to be still?

All your contributions are much appreciated!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Bremguy]

On all the ships I worked on, the Propellers were some distance from the stern. As, the rudder or rudders are directly behind the props.
Depending on the ship and its purpose, the size of the propeller, the pitch, and other factors, it would be highly unlikely to be able to see a prop in most any situation. Also, in the Navy only have one prop, mainly submarines, and those are being phased out by propulsor units, being much quieter. Most destroyer type of ships usually only have 2 props, run on 2 shafts, usually run by 2 different plants. The larger ships such as carriers have 4 propellers, usually quite large.

It is highly unlikely that the propellers would be running at different speeds. Propellers on naval vessels like to run slow, compared to the engines running, that is why there are usually some sort of reduction gears to slow the shafts to what the propellers like to run at.

An Ensign in the Navy , while quite qualified, is not as knowledgeable as a ships engineer, who is usually 2 or 3 ranks above the Ensign. Probably a Lieutenant or higher. On larger ships, the engineer would be a high ranking officer, probably Commander or higher. The Ensign on the ship in question, is probably on his first patrol or with limited numbers of patrols under his belt.

But, without a name of the ship, or even the time period, it would be near impossible to identify the ship, the type, etc. I may not know all US Navy history, but I can see, a long long time ago, some ships may have had 3 propellers.

As a disclosure: I worked for the Navy as a civillian for 17 years. I worked on Propellers for 2 years of that. I also worked as a shipfitter, the people who build and work on the hulls, rooms, superstructure, etc for 3 years. I also did a couple of short trial runs on some of the boats. I did some time as a design tech too. I was also in the US Air Force, lasting 2 years before being medically discharged due to my MS.

[moksha]

Consiglieri, the Titanic had a three propeller system. Interestingly, Second Officer David Blair was removed from the RMS Titanic crew at the last minute and in his haste forgot to give his key to the binoculars case in the Crow's Nest to his replacement.

The particular story in question sounds like an inspirational allegory. If so, don't be disappointed in details differ from real life.

[Just This Guy]

1. This obviously happened at night during a big storm. It would have been black as pitch out, which would have made the propellers hard to see, even if theoretically visible. Does that impact the credibility of the story?

Probably has a flashlight, so that isn't a problem. Viability in the middle of a hurricane is a completely different story. Heavy ran and high wind would make it hard to see. Viability of event the 20-50 feet from the deck to the props would be very difficult. Then you have the ocean spray and foam that are kicked up by the engines as well.

2. The ship is already in the middle of a huge storm and yet the engineer is telling the captain to run the motors full tilt in an effort to outrun the storm? That doesn't make sense to me. Maybe if you weren't already in the storm you might try to outrun it. But once in the storm, wouldn't the proper practice be to steer the vessel into the wind?

Into or away from it. You are trying to get it blowing across your smallest cross sectional axis. However, facing into the wind is the easiest way to react to it instead of trying to constantly correct your tail. This is a constant battle to keep your heading in the right direction as the storm changes.

3. There appear to be three engines; one of which is not working; one of which is half working and one of which is working. Does that mean there would be three propellers as well? Does that help to identify the ship?

Depends on the ship. Older ships have a central steam plant that powers one engine for each prop. Early 20's century to WWII era. More modern ones have several engines that run electrical generators that power the ship and the electrically driven props.

For this happening in the 50's I would guess each prop has a engine powering it and then they have two engines that run generators that power the rest of the boat. It is also possible that they could have a hybrid setup where some are powered by direct linkage to their power plants, and others are indirectly powered by an electric motor. It is impossible to say without knowing what ship this actually happened on.

4. The failure to provide the name of the captain or the ship smacks of withholding details in an apparent effort to prevent the story from being sabotaged.

I agree with that one.

5. If only one propeller is going much faster than the other, would that tend to make the ship go in a circle? Or would the rudder be able to take care of that? I am guessing the latter, but just throwing it out there.

Yup. Major red flag there. It is possible to use heavy rudder to one side to compensate for the power differential, but that is going really impact maneuverability of the ship. In the middle of a major storm, the last thing you would want is to be caught with your maneuvering pants down, so to say. See #2 for why maneuvering is so important.

Red Flag #2 is why would someone need to go out and physically look at the prop speed? Both the bridge and engineering have readouts of the RPM speed of each prop. If they are not working, then there are other major problems with the ship. There was no need to get wet to learn this information. Also, would he even know what a proper speed for a prop is?

6. It is clear on its face that the idea that the ship's captain taking the advice of his ensign over the engineer makes no sense. Or is this God working in mysterious ways?

7. The theology gets messy pretty fast. If this guy hadn't prayed, God would have drowned the entire shipload of sailors. And if this guy had just prayed for God to make the ship safe, God would have drowned the entire shipload of sailors. And if this guy had prayed only the first time and not followed up with several subsequent prayers, and actions, God would have drowned the entire shipload of sailors. This story seems to be a lot more about highlighting the righteousness of the ensign than it is about God giving a damn about the sailors. Isn't this the same God who told the storm to be still?

It's even worse. What about all the other sailors on the ship that were also praying, but nor Mormon? Were they going to be ignored? Mormon god is a real dick that way.

[Just This Guy]

I talked to a coworker who served in the Navy and then went on to be the project foreman for the Coast Guard Ship Yard in Baltimore Maryland. He had a few notes:

1. The Ensign getting the job to go out on deck to check things out is not unusual. He's lowest on the officer rank scale, so he gets the crap jobs that no one else wants to do. Maybe he volunteered, maybe not. But it's the job that people above him could give him if they didn't want to do it themselves. So that part is likely embellished.
2. The captain asking him to pray is highly unusual. It wouldn't be too bad if it was the whole crew, but only one person who is not a chaplain is not something that is done.
3. 3 prop ships are very unusual in the Navy. They may happen, but he hasn't seen any, and he has seen a lot of boats from all angles. Common configurations are 1, 2 or 4 props.
4. A prop spinning fast when out of the water is normal. Water takes a lot of energy to move in mass. So a prop spins slow in the water. When it comes out of the water, it still has the same amount of power to it from the engine, so it will suddenly spin up much faster until the engine has a chance to correct, or it goes back down into the water. The crew watching the gauges would be aware of this change in RPMs and correcting accordingly. So that is normal, expected ships behavior. Because of this, if they really didn't know the prop speed, this would not tell them anything useful because the speed of the prop in the air would be much higher than reality in the water.
5. According to him, the average ship, even in that era is a diesel/electric system. However there were plenty of exceptions and older ships that used other systems. In this setup, two* or more large diesel engines that only run generators and there are electric motors that power the actual props. If they were having trouble and the power output is not ideal, they would shut down un-needed ship systems to keep from causing a brown out to try to focus on getting the ship out of the storm.
6. Having one prop faster than the other will result in the ship going in circles. You can correct with the rudder, but that will slow you down, cause cavitation, reduce maneuverability, and possibly damage the ruder system. He could not think of a good reason why you would want to intentionally run a ship like that, even in a storm.
7. The idea of an ensign having the brilliant idea that none else did is highly suspect. Not only is he going against the captain and chief engineer, he also is going over a number of other higher ranking officers including the executive officer and the whole engineering team. Any of these people would be well within their rights to point out a potentially problematic order. If there was a problem, a number of people would be there to see it, unless this is a REALLY small boat.
8. He didn't have a issue with being able to see the prop from the fan tail. It depends on the ship, but some you can in the right conditions. Seeing them in the middle of a hurricane could be interesting.


* For safety reasons, Boats of this size always have at least one extra engine so the boat can run full power with atleast one engine down. If you had a boat with a single engine, and it died, the whole boat is dead.

[consiglieri]

Thanks so much for all your help and insights, especially from those with naval experience!

I really appreciate it!

I am learning a lot!

[græy]

Thank you consiglieri! Really looking forward to your GC post mortem!

[Archimedes]

Into the box, buddy. Two minutes for embellishment.