Latest RFM Podcast Second Best in History?

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
acmeist
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Re: Latest RFM Podcast Second Best in History?

Post by acmeist » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:54 am

I took Kent Jackson's Pearl of Great Price class in the 90s. I don't remember a lot of what was taught then, but when I learned about the different First Vision accounts by reading Rough Stone Rolling and other sources a decade later, I felt like I hadn't heard or read a lot of the information before. Maybe I zoned out in his class, maybe he didn't teach it as thoroughly as he says, or maybe it's a mixture of both. My reading and learning about the not sanitized version of church doctrine and history and my feelings about how it was downplayed or not talked about are valid though. I hate the "blame the church members for not knowing this stuff" defense.

Christfollower
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Re: Latest RFM Podcast Second Best in History?

Post by Christfollower » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:27 am

Corsair wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:48 am

Bill knew he could no longer really be authentic and has been increasingly pulling back from the church. He and his family are on sabbatical and his podcasts should be taking on a more basic Christian flavor. I am watching his status with some interest. If Bill can't make Mormonism work, then it's becoming a narrow religion than fewer can really tolerate.
I've been watching this from a great distance for quite awhile. Holding onto the Middle Way is like dancing on a razor blade.

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Latest RFM Podcast Second Best in History?

Post by RubinHighlander » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:44 am

IT_Veteran wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:15 am
consiglieri wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:32 am
<SNIP>
I started teaching the Pearl of Great Price in the mid-80s. By actual account, I taught 59 sections. If we estimate 40 students in each, I taught 2360 students. In every class, the students were required to read the four accounts of the First Vision, and we spent three days talking about the accounts and what we learn from them. Never once did a student raise a concern about differences, though we discussed them openly. You are right, this scandal is one of the most artificial complaints possible.

<SNIP>

Also, I included the four accounts in my 1996 book, From Apostasy to Restoration (Deseret Book), which has sold over 13,000 copies. If we were supposed to keep them under wraps, why didn’t anyone tell me?
Well damn, if 15,000 Mormons knew about it, certainly it couldn't have been suppression! I mean, that's almost 0.15% of the Mormon population (assuming 10M members in 1996 when he published his book). Doesn't matter that every Primary or Sunday School class I ever sat in, from age 6 onward, taught one narrative about one particular version of the first vision. Only one was ever in the correlated curriculum, so far as I can tell.

But we didn't suppress it, right?
This! It's so damn annoying! That's only slightly less annoying than Ballard telling the youth in the QA primer they were not going to talk about the controversial stuff, then pulling that binder out (at the actual event) with some obscure old non-mainstream publication article and using it to prove the church wasn't covering anything up!

Another revealing appologetic tactic in his response was this line:
There are only so many things that can be covered, though, in individual instantiations of a column that invariably runs between 736 and 739 words.
Word counts are often used by appologetics to try and prove or disprove their point. It's like those Napoleon Dynamite type statements: Napoleon: "This is like the worst appology every made." Kip: "Napoleon, as if anyone can anyone even know that."

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Hagoth
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Re: Latest RFM Podcast Second Best in History?

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:25 pm

I’m pretty confident that nobody out there will actually be able to prove me a liar, since, simply, I’m not a liar and I wasn’t lying.
Uh, I think someone just did that. Saying you're not a liar doesn't prove that you aren't. In fact, claiming that you aren't a liar as a defense for getting caught in the act of lying is also a lie, and it only digs the hole deeper.
By the way, even if it’s true that Joseph Fielding Smith didn’t want to make the 1832 account public, that ended in the 1960s, which was over half a century ago! That’s ancient history. Paul Cheesman (BYU religion professor) analyzed the accounts in his 1965 MA thesis at BYU, then Dean Jessee published them in 1969. Yeah, keeping it under wraps.
It's fascinating to me that this line of reasoning keeps coming up. If it happened a long time ago and it's complimentary to the church's narrative we don't question it, but if it happened a long time ago and it is injurious to the church's narrative we should ignore it. Huh?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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jfro18
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Re: Latest RFM Podcast Second Best in History?

Post by jfro18 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:25 pm

consiglieri wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:32 am
As to any apologist responses, here is the half-baked response Daniel Peterson wrote in his blog at Sic et Non.

____________________________

A bit more on the variant accounts of the First Vision

In the meantime, I plead innocent to the charge of being a deliberate liar. (Why do certain types of critics immediately resort, quite commonly from the safe retreat of anonymity, to the harshest possible construal of such disagreements?) I’m pretty confident that nobody out there will actually be able to prove me a liar, since, simply, I’m not a liar and I wasn’t lying. And surely there are other options. Maybe I’m just stupid, for example, or incompetent, or ignorant, or blind.

Moreover, I point out (a) that the article in question is less than 740 words long and that (b) it was never intended as my last word on the topic nor as an exhaustive treatment of the issues that have been raised with regard to the First Vision.

In other words, I stand by it.

Is there more to be said? Yes. Of course. And, sooner or later, I’m likely to say it. There are only so many things that can be covered, though, in individual instantiations of a column that invariably runs between 736 and 739 words.
This is such an absolute insult to anyone who takes themselves seriously as a "so-called scholar."

Bottom line is that no matter how many words you have, if you deliberately lie... you've lied. Lies of omissions are lies. Surely Peterson knows the "honesty" chapter of the Gospel Doctrines manual, right? "Lying is intentionally deceiving others" or "We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth." Take your pick - he is a liar and there is absolutely no way around it.

These types of arrogant responses are just the most angering ones from LDS apologists, because they *know* they are full of it but don't care because they are hitting the audience they want. Deseret News published that douchebag's article because it is aimed to get anyone who has wondered why Joseph Smith somehow forgot that God was there in the first account could be honest and not a lying adulterer who made it up as he went along so he could bang other men's wives while they said "Thanks for the salvation, I hope my wife was as good for you as she was for me. Great is the God who decided that I should give up my wife to you for our salvation."

It's like someone posted on the initial articles comments - it's like if I told people about the time I met Barack Obama and then 6 years later in retelling the story mentioned that not only was Obama there, but Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, and Michael Jordan were also there to tell me I was the chosen one. There's no way in hell anyone is buying it, but because they exploit God people will buy into it.

Anyway... this article is to silence anyone with doubts to keep them from looking further. It is exactly why my wife won't look any deeper into history because she reads this trash on FAIR and assumes I am taking things out of context. They know it's a lie or a deflection or spinning or whatever else you want to call it, but at the end of the day to them the ends justify the means.

Just as Joseph Smith claimed that affairs were OK because God commanded him to do it, the apologists claim that omitting important details is not a big deal because God wants members to be faithful, tithing paying members.

It's articles like these (and responses like this one from Peterson) that motivate me to do everything I can to pry as many people from this abomination of a cult as I can. I absolutely hate people who know better but still try to keep others in on the con because they think they know better than you do. The same people that mock the "so-called scholars" for bringing up the dirty history of mormonism are the same ones that completely make up the rules of being a scholar as they go along.

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moksha
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Re: Latest RFM Podcast Second Best in History?

Post by moksha » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:33 pm

moksha wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:32 pm
Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:26 pm
Who's the first best?
I think it may have been when that puppet dragon visited Brigham Young's outhouse. Not many such podcasts go on location. Talk about creating an authentic atmosphere for the viewers!
Does anyone have a link to this award-winning video? Can't remember the name of that puppet dragon or that mysterious hand behind him.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Reuben
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Re: Latest RFM Podcast Second Best in History?

Post by Reuben » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:57 pm

moksha wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:33 pm
moksha wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:32 pm
Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:26 pm
Who's the first best?
I think it may have been when that puppet dragon visited Brigham Young's outhouse. Not many such podcasts go on location. Talk about creating an authentic atmosphere for the viewers!
Does anyone have a link to this award-winning video? Can't remember the name of that puppet dragon or that mysterious hand behind him.
I think that was Thinker of Thoughts. The video is probably somewhere on his channel:

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCVTCFh3uDMH0GZlwl1JOoHQ

You might find it if you search there for "evil apostate."

ETA: I think this is it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-2F5CnzlZbM
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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Spicy McHaggis
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Re: Latest RFM Podcast Second Best in History?

Post by Spicy McHaggis » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:23 pm

Is there anyway to listen without breaking my two year Facebook fast?

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w2mz
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Re: Latest RFM Podcast Second Best in History?

Post by w2mz » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:55 am

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/201 ... ologetics/

I hope it’s okay to post the direct link...

I’m about 50% through. Great so far!
The church has engineered your eternal family into a commodity that can be purchased with an annual fee. The fact that full tithing payment is a requirement for saving ordinances is the biggest red flag imaginable. Hagoth

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