Moses...

[Hagoth]

Adam - too much to unpack

Probably comes from Mesopotamian creation myths about the emergence of civilization from the wetlands of southern Iraq. There are fragments of tales of first people living in a garden. Even one about a goddess who made her husband jealous by taking too much interest in her human pets, so he punished her by removing the legs from her other favorite pet, the serpent.

Noah - there's equally little proof of a global flood, there are civilizations that kept good records that show a continuous history through a period that covers the time period of the flood. Implications on Mormon doctrines? Maybe not so much. No baptism of the earth.

The Noah story is plagiarized directly from the story of Utnapishtim from the Epic of Gilgamesh. Utnapishtim built a giant boat to save animals from a global flood and he even sent out a dove and then a raven to determine if the waters had receded.

Tower of Babel - the same civilizations that kept their records kinda show that there wasn't an event where the languages were suddenly divided. The whole thing feels more like a story people told to explain why there were multiple languages than anything else. Implications? Mostly the literalness gets tied up in the BoM with the Jaredites.

Probably a reaction of the captive Israelites to the ziggarats of their captors.

Abraham - Mormon doctrines are very tied up in Abraham. What if Abraham were a mythological figure, a composite of old tribal leaders that got embellished in the oral traditions? Of course that would have implications on more than just Mormonism.

I think that is highly likely. A lot of the Abraham story (and of other OT characters) has to do with tribal land ownership, inheritance, and promises made to men by gods, which is a general theme of the OT and of Mesopotamian literature.

Moses - What would we lose if Moses were not historical? The gathering of Israel. The AP.

Although he may be based on a real figure who was memorialized in oral traditions, I think it's highly unlikely that anyone like the biblical Moses existed. See my previous comment about the origin story of Sargon 1. That would be quite a coincidence if Moses had the same story, but it's more likely that Sargon made it up and the OT writers copied it.

Psalms 74:13 is a direct reference to the Babylonian creation myth: "Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters," where the gods created a place for humans by dividing the sea from the dry land, but they also had to defeat the great primordial dragon that ruled the waters.

[Hagoth]

Here are a couple of specific examples of how the Bible kicks the BoM's butt for historicity:

Metallurgy:
Both books claim extensive use of metal. No one has yet produced a single example of smelting in potential BoM locations. In contrast, the evidence of metal mining and smelting in the Holy Land is almost overwhelming.
Khirbat en-Nahas is a 3000-year old copper refinery in Jordan, just south of the Dead Sea. It is one of many that date to biblical times, and has produced so much slag it's visible from space:
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/ ... p?id=47448

Lachish:
The Old Testament tells us that Assyrian King Sennacherib laid siege to the Israelite held city of Lachish in 701 BC. Not only was Sennacherib a real person, as corroborated by multiple sources, but he even described and illustrated the event in a carved relief in his palace at Nineveh. Additionally, the site of Lachish is still extant and if you go there today you will find the siege tower ramps described in Sennacherib's records, an Assyrian military camp, sling balls, arrow points, etc, etc.

Real events, real places, real people... real evidence. Magic optional.

[IT_Veteran]

Here are a couple of specific examples of how the Bible kicks the BoM's butt for historicity:

Metallurgy:
Both books claim extensive use of metal. No one has yet produced a single example of smelting in potential BoM locations. In contrast, the evidence of metal mining and smelting in the Holy Land is almost overwhelming.
Khirbat en-Nahas is a 3000-year old copper refinery in Jordan, just south of the Dead Sea. It is one of many that date to biblical times, and has produced so much slag it's visible from space:
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/ ... p?id=47448

Lachish:
The Old Testament tells us that Assyrian King Sennacherib laid siege to the Israelite held city of Lachish in 701 BC. Not only was Sennacherib a real person, as corroborated by multiple sources, but he even described and illustrated the event in a carved relief in his palace at Nineveh. Additionally, the site of Lachish is still extant and if you go there today you will find the siege tower ramps described in Sennacherib's records, an Assyrian military camp, sling balls, arrow points, etc, etc.

Real events, real places, real people... real evidence. Magic optional.

I've been to the ancient city of Ninevah - sort of. When I was in Mosul back in 2006, we drove up the highway between Mosul and Erbil. The ancient walls of Ninevah were still standing at that point. Someone was kind enough to put an IED right next to the gate and detonate it as our first truck drove through (no injuries or significant damage), but I still thought the gates were pretty cool.

[Hagoth]

I've been to the ancient city of Ninevah - sort of. When I was in Mosul back in 2006, we drove up the highway between Mosul and Erbil. The ancient walls of Ninevah were still standing at that point. Someone was kind enough to put an IED right next to the gate and detonate it as our first truck drove through (no injuries or significant damage), but I still thought the gates were pretty cool.

Wow.

[wtfluff]

Here are a couple of specific examples of how the Bible kicks the BoM's butt for historicity:

Yet... Even though the bible gets a "couple" things right, it's still no more than a bunch of urban legends passed down by oral tradition with tiny bits of historical accuracy tossed in to the mix. Really bad historical fiction if you will.

I "stand all amazed" how anyone who knows any snippet about where the bible came from and can still claim it is "The inerrant word of god."

[IT_Veteran]

Here are a couple of specific examples of how the Bible kicks the BoM's butt for historicity:

Yet... Even though the bible gets a "couple" things right, it's still no more than a bunch of urban legends passed down by oral tradition with tiny bits of historical accuracy tossed in to the mix. Really bad historical fiction if you will.

I "stand all amazed" how anyone who knows any snippet about where the bible came from and can still claim it is "The inerrant word of god."

But Joseph gave them an out with his "as far as it is translated correctly" bit. They're then free to take whatever parts of the bible that make sense and reject the rest as a mistranslation. I learned a lot about the origins of the bible, the inconsistencies with it, and the historical inaccuracy of it. That's what led me out of the church, long before I knew about issues with the early church and the BoM anachronisms.

[wtfluff]

Here are a couple of specific examples of how the Bible kicks the BoM's butt for historicity:

Yet... Even though the bible gets a "couple" things right, it's still no more than a bunch of urban legends passed down by oral tradition with tiny bits of historical accuracy tossed in to the mix. Really bad historical fiction if you will.

I "stand all amazed" how anyone who knows any snippet about where the bible came from and can still claim it is "The inerrant word of god."

But Joseph gave them an out with his "as far as it is translated correctly" bit. They're then free to take whatever parts of the bible that make sense and reject the rest as a mistranslation. I learned a lot about the origins of the bible, the inconsistencies with it, and the historical inaccuracy of it. That's what led me out of the church, long before I knew about issues with the early church and the BoM anachronisms.

Yep. "Translation" has got nothing to do with it. The only folks who use that as an excuse are mormons, and truthfully, they're a tiny, insignificant portion of the population of folks who've decided to base their lives on a couple-thousand-year-old book of historical fiction.

[Hagoth]

Here are a couple of specific examples of how the Bible kicks the BoM's butt for historicity:

Yet... Even though the bible gets a "couple" things right, it's still no more than a bunch of urban legends passed down by oral tradition with tiny bits of historical accuracy tossed in to the mix. Really bad historical fiction if you will.

Right. My point, of course, is not that the Bible is true, but that it is genuinely ancient. If the BoM were also truly ancient there would be similar corroborating evidence. All indications are that the BoM appeared out of someone's imagination in the early 19th century.

[deacon blues]

I hope I'm not deviating to far from the basic topic. I stumbled on this Evangelist Christian Apologetic presentation yesterday.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI1yRTC6kGE
It was helpful to me, in that it shed some light on the difference between Septuagint and Masoretic texts. And it was appealingly produced. But it shows the same weaknesses as LDS apologetic presentations - the goal is to defend a certain view rather than to learn truth.

[Not Buying It]

Screw the lack of historical evidence - Numbers 31 is enough to tell you that if a man called Moses existed, he was no prophet of God - or at least not a prophet of any kind of God I want to worship:

7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.

14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

[Archimedes]

Thankfully, we live in a kinder, gentler world today. At least some of us.