Ongoing revelations of church child abuse coverups

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alas
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Re: Ongoing revelations of church child abuse coverups

Post by alas » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:13 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:33 pm
alas wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:02 am
Thoughtful wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:41 am
I have alluded to this earlier, but over the last few months it's become apparent that my stake and extended family engaged in a cover up of significant pedophilia at the hands of a member of the ward. When my child became victimized, I spoke up, loudly and with the police department, and they are finally--FINALLY proceeding with a disciplinary council--as so I've been told. Last I heard they were debating ward vs stake level. I learned last week that another YW in another ward in my building was also bothered (stalked) but not assaulted by this individual. She reported it to her bishop and nothing was done other than "talking to him" and he did not stop. I know he has done it to other YW, and I know now that he's been doing it for decades. However, I am watching in real time as family members and ward/stake leaders continue to obstruct, protect, deflect, deny, and minimize what is happening. It is tearing my extended family apart--or rather, my extended family is 100% united in supporting the abuser over the children. It is absolutely bizarre how well LDS people are programmed to ignore abuse and avoid dealing with it, and how our culture is programmed to enable it and support the male priesthood perpetrators. Because of my child speaking up, he has lost his job, hopefully will be excommunicated, and might possibly be charged, but I have no idea whether the case is strong enough to not be plead down to nothing.

I 100% believe this is happening and all these news stories are true because I see how I literally sit in meetings with leadership and bring up these stories and they make excuses (that's just one bishop, we would never do it that way) while they do the same damn thing toward my children. When this whole scenario goes public, if other victims come forward, I believe there will be grounds for a lawsuit at least against some family members who helped him get a job working with children and helped keep it off his background checks. I believe that there are many members of my stake who may leave the church.

As of last night, this individual is still planning to come to the family reunion, and he's welcomed with full fellowship by the family. My husband emailed those with children and let them know exactly what he has done to others so they can be informed and protect their children--we were NOT informed and family doesn't see that as a problem. The response to his email? *crickets*

I am starting to believe Mormonism is a cancer that destroys your frontal lobe.
I have really struggled with how so many members think child sexual abuse is less of a sin than, oh, say, masturbation. It just boggles my mind. It is a story I won’t get into about why my supervisor wanted me to deal with my fears and put me as leader of an offenders support group. But I ended up an adult survivor of incest as professional facilitator in a group of men who had raped children. And this was in Ogden UT, so most in the support group were Mormon child molesters. They would say things about raping their step daughter like, “At least I didn’t commit adultery.” Ummmm, let’s see, he is still married, so at the very least it qualifies as adultery. He was unfaithful to his wife——with her four year old daughter!!! And he thinks raping a child is LESS serious than having sex with a willing, knowledgeable, adult female???

But then I went off to grad school in Texas. I decided to do a research paper about the factors in male thinking that allow a man to commit incest. I found one book that broke offenders down by religion, and he analyzed the traits in religion (without naming specific denominations) such as male only priesthood. (The exception was Jews, he named them as an exception to some of the traits) but his religious traits that seemed to lead to a greater tendency to commit incest were:
1. Male only priesthood
2. Strong emphasis on family and pressure to keep the family intact
3. Strong emphasis on traditional gender roles.
4. History of strange sexual practices, such as polygamy.

Now, can you think of any other religion that this description fits better than Mormons?

You can see that the same things that lead to more abuse in the family also contribute to the desire to cover it up. Male only priesthood gives a sense that even abusive males are more important than females. So, individually, it gives a sense of entitlement, but within the group, it leads to a higher value placed on males. The men all know that the men are more important, and as long as it isn’t their daughter, they are fine with sweeping it under the rug. And, well, abuse being exposed is what causes the family breakup. As long as it is hidden, no one suffers except the victim. Breaking up the family, as wives tend to do when they find out, is more serious than that one child’s wellbeing. The traditional gender roles, well, what are women FOR? And so what if she is only a child? It is just sex. No biggy, no harm done. And in the individual families, the strong emphasis on roles, means a man does not marry an individual. He marries someone to preform the “wife” role. And if his wife does not perform that role to his satisfaction, then he turns to the closes available performer of the role, his daughter, and she becomes “junior wife”. And, well, I won’t bother with the polygamy thing and how early Mormons would marry a widow and her daughter or two sisters giving a modern man “permission” to have sex with a step daughter or wife’s younger sister.


OK, I need to go do something else, because this topic makes me crazy.
Do you recall which book that was?
No, it was about 40 years ago, but I have wished for those 40 years that I had stolen the book from the library. It was a special social work library, not even a normal university library, so the kind of library that has unpublished doctoral papers and such, but this looked like a regular published book. But I even threw out the paper I wrote so I don't even have the reference. And because research that throws bad light on any one group has become such a political hot potato, I doubt people are very interested in that kind of research.

Thoughtful
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Re: Ongoing revelations of church child abuse coverups

Post by Thoughtful » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:22 pm

IT_Veteran wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:05 am
Palerider wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:48 am
Thoughtful wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:59 am
...it's not going to happen quickly because trust must be earned, and it won't be happening at all if my ILs cannot see the reality of the situation.
+1

The recidivism rate (tendency of a criminal to reoffend) is very high among child molesters, like around 90%.

Only an idiot would invite them to a function with bunches of little kids around. Even if they don't offend right at that moment, it's a huge trigger for them. They go home thinking about those kids.

Stick by your guns. Don't be afraid of losing a relationship with people who live in a fantasy world. When they grow up they will come back and seek you out. ;)
I'd say it's probably even higher than 90% when they've never been prosecuted or otherwise disciplined. Especially when people close to the offender don't take precautions with their own kids because they don't want to offend him.
This one is definitely a recidivism risk, it's been going on for decades and covered up neatly. We only learned about it a few months ago when it started happening to my child.

I saw this posted in a Post Mormon FB group this morning related to the OP. CW: discussion of child sexual abuse
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_E9N_ ... E1LUE/edit

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alas
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Re: Ongoing revelations of church child abuse coverups

Post by alas » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:34 pm

Thoughtful, something you can bring up in the reconciliation discussion is that the church marks the records of known sexual offenders and never again puts them in a calling with children. So the church is setting an example of protecting children first, and full reconciliation and trust is reserved for the next life, because the person's church records are marked for life. So, you have the same right to protect your children as the church does.

Also, forgiveness can be done without any reconciling. Brigham Young once used an analogy of a rattle snake, and the difference between forgiveness and revenge. Revenge is chasing down the rattle snake to kill it after you get bit. Wastes time when you need to get yourself to a doctor. He didn't even CONSIDER what the church is asking you to do, which would be taking the snake home with you for a pet for your children. That is NOT forgivesness. That is stupidity. You stay as far away from the snake as you can, but you don't waste time chasing it down to kill it. You get yourself to a doctor, and let the rattle snake go, or in this case, your kiddo to a doctor and you stay away from the rattle snake as long as you suspect it is still a rattle snake. If it ever can prove to you that it turned into a teddy bear, you can let it back into your life. Meanwhile, you do not snuggle with a rattle snake and call it forgiveness.

So, your in laws should prove they understand what they did wrong, and explain to you how they now know better and nothing like that will ever happen again, and then allow you five to ten years while they prove to you they can be trusted. Anything short of that, and they are the rattle snake wanting to be your pet.

So many people from the church demanded that I "love" my father and let him be a grampa to my children. Yeah, great pet rattle snake, yet the church reserved the right to keep him away from children, but I couldn't. I once said how I took my four year old to the kitchen with me, to get her off grampa's lap. I was accused by this priesthood leader of being "unforgiving" and how I was worse than my child molesting father. I thought I was doing great in the forgiveness area, because I at least let his sorry ass see his grandkids, I did not need to expose them to molestation by leaving them alone in a room, when he was inviting them to sit on his lap.

Thoughtful
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Re: Ongoing revelations of church child abuse coverups

Post by Thoughtful » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:07 pm

We met with my ILs a few days ago and had what I felt was a constructive discussion, inching toward some sort of shared perspective. We had agreed to participate partially in the reunion, they had agreed to dis-invite pedo.

Then today they called my Spouseman and said some terrible things about me, chastised him for telling other relatives with vulnerable children that the pedo relative is a danger, and literally said I am enjoying torturing them by not "fully accepting their apology" and keeping then from their grandchildren. ?????

Spouseman wants me to call them and work things out.

I have a migraine. They are unhinged, and I don't have the bandwidth to deal with their narcissism anymore.

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Palerider
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Re: Ongoing revelations of church child abuse coverups

Post by Palerider » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:24 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:07 pm
We met with my ILs a few days ago and had what I felt was a constructive discussion, inching toward some sort of shared perspective. We had agreed to participate partially in the reunion, they had agreed to dis-invite pedo.

Then today they called my Spouseman and said some terrible things about me, chastised him for telling other relatives with vulnerable children that the pedo relative is a danger, and literally said I am enjoying torturing them by not "fully accepting their apology" and keeping then from their grandchildren. ?????

Spouseman wants me to call them and work things out.

I have a migraine. They are unhinged, and I don't have the bandwidth to deal with their narcissism anymore.

Sorry to put it bluntly but Spouseman needs to grow a spine. If both of you are on the same page in your feelings about "pedo", then Spouseman should have immediately nipped his parents demands and rhetoric in the bud by telling them it isn't just you. He should have said, "We both feel this way and there's nothing to "work out"".

It is what it is....

Inlaws are welcome to come and see their grandkids anytime pedo isn't around. No one is stopping them.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

Thoughtful
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Re: Ongoing revelations of church child abuse coverups

Post by Thoughtful » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:17 pm

Palerider wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:24 pm
Thoughtful wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:07 pm
We met with my ILs a few days ago and had what I felt was a constructive discussion, inching toward some sort of shared perspective. We had agreed to participate partially in the reunion, they had agreed to dis-invite pedo.

Then today they called my Spouseman and said some terrible things about me, chastised him for telling other relatives with vulnerable children that the pedo relative is a danger, and literally said I am enjoying torturing them by not "fully accepting their apology" and keeping then from their grandchildren. ?????

Spouseman wants me to call them and work things out.

I have a migraine. They are unhinged, and I don't have the bandwidth to deal with their narcissism anymore.

Sorry to put it bluntly but Spouseman needs to grow a spine. If both of you are on the same page in your feelings about "pedo", then Spouseman should have immediately nipped his parents demands and rhetoric in the bud by telling them it isn't just you. He should have said, "We both feel this way and there's nothing to "work out"".

It is what it is....

Inlaws are welcome to come and see their grandkids anytime pedo isn't around. No one is stopping them.
He did defend me on the phone with them, and is 100% with me that children will not be around pedo. I can empathize with the fact that he has a different history with his mother than I do-- he's the golden child and she's always been awful to me. Nevertheless, I will not be pressured into maintaining a relationship with her, or into facilitating one between her and my children. He can supervise visits, if and when they happen.

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Palerider
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Re: Ongoing revelations of church child abuse coverups

Post by Palerider » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:55 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:17 pm

He did defend me on the phone with them, and is 100% with me that children will not be around pedo. I can empathize with the fact that he has a different history with his mother than I do-- he's the golden child and she's always been awful to me. Nevertheless, I will not be pressured into maintaining a relationship with her, or into facilitating one between her and my children. He can supervise visits, if and when they happen.

Glad things are working.

I had second thoughts about posting that reply. It's really not my place to tell anyone how their relationship should be. But I do like to see people stand up when they need to.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Raylan Givens
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Re: Ongoing revelations of church child abuse coverups

Post by Raylan Givens » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:58 pm

Palerider wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:55 pm
Thoughtful wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:17 pm

He did defend me on the phone with them, and is 100% with me that children will not be around pedo. I can empathize with the fact that he has a different history with his mother than I do-- he's the golden child and she's always been awful to me. Nevertheless, I will not be pressured into maintaining a relationship with her, or into facilitating one between her and my children. He can supervise visits, if and when they happen.

Glad things are working.

I had second thoughts about posting that reply. It's really not my place to tell anyone how their relationship should be. But I do like to see people stand up when they need to.
Dealing with IL's is tricky. Glad he supported you. We can't really change what people think of us when they are not reasonable people, glad you have boundaries too.
"Ah, you know, I think you use the Bible to do whatever the hell you like" - Raylan Givens

Thoughtful
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Re: Ongoing revelations of church child abuse coverups

Post by Thoughtful » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:31 pm

Palerider wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:55 pm
Thoughtful wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:17 pm

He did defend me on the phone with them, and is 100% with me that children will not be around pedo. I can empathize with the fact that he has a different history with his mother than I do-- he's the golden child and she's always been awful to me. Nevertheless, I will not be pressured into maintaining a relationship with her, or into facilitating one between her and my children. He can supervise visits, if and when they happen.

Glad things are working.

I had second thoughts about posting that reply. It's really not my place to tell anyone how their relationship should be. But I do like to see people stand up when they need to.
Posting about it online is tricky, because venting doesn't always convey the whole story, just the most upsetting current issue. I didn't take offense from your comment.

Thoughtful
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Re: Ongoing revelations of church child abuse coverups

Post by Thoughtful » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:32 pm

Raylan Givens wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:58 pm
Palerider wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:55 pm
Thoughtful wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:17 pm

He did defend me on the phone with them, and is 100% with me that children will not be around pedo. I can empathize with the fact that he has a different history with his mother than I do-- he's the golden child and she's always been awful to me. Nevertheless, I will not be pressured into maintaining a relationship with her, or into facilitating one between her and my children. He can supervise visits, if and when they happen.

Glad things are working.

I had second thoughts about posting that reply. It's really not my place to tell anyone how their relationship should be. But I do like to see people stand up when they need to.
Dealing with IL's is tricky. Glad he supported you. We can't really change what people think of us when they are not reasonable people, glad you have boundaries too.
Thank you! I very much appreciate the support!

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