Ongoing revelations of church child abuse coverups

[Hagoth]

This was in yesterday's Tribune:
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2 ... ested-his/

When I saw the headline I thought it was going to be yet another story I read about elsewhere. In that one an LDS doctor is said to have been sent on a medical mission where he abused children, was reported to church leaders, covered up by higher-up leaders, and sent on another medical mission where he continued to abuse children. If you have seen any coverage of that story please pass it along. It's hard to say how factual it is but I believe the post I saw was by one of that man's children who was trying to get him to face up to what he had done.

The common thread of stories like this and McKenna Denson story, seems to be that the perpetrators were reported to leadership multiple times and kept under wraps, either because the women and girls were not to be taken as seriously as a priesthood holder, or that it was assumed that the perpetrator had repented to God and his local leaders, so everything was wiped clean.

I hope these stories are adding up to a tipping point where they will get the attention they deserve.

[jfro18]

When the church was founded to treat women like property, this is how the response it going to be every single time.

It doesn't matter that polygamy is illegal... it doesn't matter than women can now give prayers at conference... this is still an old man's club and will always be so. And in that case you will always give them the benefit of the doubt over women *and* will always do what is in the interest of the church's interest before you concede that discernment is as real as the tooth fairy.

The only thing that has changed is that the '#MeToo' movement is causing more of these stories to surface and gain attention, and the church (once again) is so slow to react and behind the times that they look uncaring and out of touch.

It won't matter with members though - they won't see these stories and if they do will say 'How awful' and look to RMN for the next revelation-in-name-only to come.

[moksha]

The story follows on the heels of yet another Tribune story about abuse being reported to a number of Church leaders multiple times and no police report being filed.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/06/24/ ... ars-later/

[deacon blues]

Local leaders, especially those with connections, are often protected while mere members, especially women, are sacrificed. A particular case of a friend of my father's comes to mind.

[2bizE]

It is highly probable there are hundreds of such sexual abuse issues in the church that could become a lawsuit. It is very difficult to come forward and admit and accuse. The cases we are hearing about occurred decades ago, and these brave women have suffered immensely for years before filing a case. There will be more of these to come. Kirton McKonkie will continue to have many profitable years.

[Thoughtful]

I have alluded to this earlier, but over the last few months it's become apparent that my stake and extended family engaged in a cover up of significant pedophilia at the hands of a member of the ward. When my child became victimized, I spoke up, loudly and with the police department, and they are finally--FINALLY proceeding with a disciplinary council--as so I've been told. Last I heard they were debating ward vs stake level. I learned last week that another YW in another ward in my building was also bothered (stalked) but not assaulted by this individual. She reported it to her bishop and nothing was done other than "talking to him" and he did not stop. I know he has done it to other YW, and I know now that he's been doing it for decades. However, I am watching in real time as family members and ward/stake leaders continue to obstruct, protect, deflect, deny, and minimize what is happening. It is tearing my extended family apart--or rather, my extended family is 100% united in supporting the abuser over the children. It is absolutely bizarre how well LDS people are programmed to ignore abuse and avoid dealing with it, and how our culture is programmed to enable it and support the male priesthood perpetrators. Because of my child speaking up, he has lost his job, hopefully will be excommunicated, and might possibly be charged, but I have no idea whether the case is strong enough to not be plead down to nothing.

I 100% believe this is happening and all these news stories are true because I see how I literally sit in meetings with leadership and bring up these stories and they make excuses (that's just one bishop, we would never do it that way) while they do the same damn thing toward my children. When this whole scenario goes public, if other victims come forward, I believe there will be grounds for a lawsuit at least against some family members who helped him get a job working with children and helped keep it off his background checks. I believe that there are many members of my stake who may leave the church.

As of last night, this individual is still planning to come to the family reunion, and he's welcomed with full fellowship by the family. My husband emailed those with children and let them know exactly what he has done to others so they can be informed and protect their children--we were NOT informed and family doesn't see that as a problem. The response to his email? *crickets*

I am starting to believe Mormonism is a cancer that destroys your frontal lobe.

[IT_Veteran]

Not sure if this is an option for you or not, but if it were me I’d bow out of the reunion. I’m already drafting the message in my head. Something like:

Family, it is with heavy hearts that we have decided not to attend the reunion this year. You see, “Name of pedophile” will also be in attendance which precludes us from being there. “Pedophile” sexually assaulted our child, has harassed others, and charges have been filed. We feel it would be damaging for our daughter to attend the same event with her abuser, especially while everyone else pretends nothing has changed.

While we understand quite well Christ’s teachings on repentance and forgiveness, he never suggested that the offender should be trusted again. One can forgive, without putting themselves in danger to be further harmed by their offender. To be honest, it will take a long time to forgive “pedophile” and I don’t know where we’ll end up on that. However, we will not put our daughter in a position to be revictimized. I encourage everyone with children to also consider their children’s safety when deciding whether or not to attend the reunion.

We love all of you. We hope we have not offended you by protecting our child and attempting to protect others’ children as well. We are happy to spend time with all of you and will do so when our kids can be safe.”


Sorry, that ended up being more detailed than what I intended when I started writing. I just started thinking of what I would want to say in your position.

[Thoughtful]

Not sure if this is an option for you or not, but if it were me I’d bow out of the reunion. I’m already drafting the message in my head. Something like:

Family, it is with heavy hearts that we have decided not to attend the reunion this year. You see, “Name of pedophile” will also be in attendance which precludes us from being there. “Pedophile” sexually assaulted our child, has harassed others, and charges have been filed. We feel it would be damaging for our daughter to attend the same event with her abuser, especially while everyone else pretends nothing has changed.

While we understand quite well Christ’s teachings on repentance and forgiveness, he never suggested that the offender should be trusted again. One can forgive, without putting themselves in danger to be further harmed by their offender. To be honest, it will take a long time to forgive “pedophile” and I don’t know where we’ll end up on that. However, we will not put our daughter in a position to be revictimized. I encourage everyone with children to also consider their children’s safety when deciding whether or not to attend the reunion.

We love all of you. We hope we have not offended you by protecting our child and attempting to protect others’ children as well. We are happy to spend time with all of you and will do so when our kids can be safe.”


Sorry, that ended up being more detailed than what I intended when I started writing. I just started thinking of what I would want to say in your position.

This is almost verbatim the email that my Spouseman sent out to family with children. He did include specific behaviors so they know it's not just some kind of unwanted hugging or overreaction, and so they will spot the grooming if it starts up.

He also told the reunion organizer that we cannot attend if pedo is there. The gross part to me is that I have been clear with family that if they include him, it excludes us, and this isn't fair to my children who did nothing wrong, and it isn't fair to other children that he still has access to!

This is why it's a sickness--we are the crazy ones. Not everyone for bringing their kids into the lion's den. Barfffffff.

[IT_Veteran]

Yeah, there’s no excuse for their behavior. I meant I would have sent it to all though, not just the ones with kids. It’s pretty awful that they’re willing to let you guys go just for him though.

Sometimes knowing where we stand with people is liberating. Heartbreaking, sure, but liberating. I’ve started to see this with my own parents, who will now do whatever they can to counter my apostasy with their testimony for my kids.

Not the same, I’d never suggest it was anywhere close, just an example of the feelings I’m describing.

[alas]

I have alluded to this earlier, but over the last few months it's become apparent that my stake and extended family engaged in a cover up of significant pedophilia at the hands of a member of the ward. When my child became victimized, I spoke up, loudly and with the police department, and they are finally--FINALLY proceeding with a disciplinary council--as so I've been told. Last I heard they were debating ward vs stake level. I learned last week that another YW in another ward in my building was also bothered (stalked) but not assaulted by this individual. She reported it to her bishop and nothing was done other than "talking to him" and he did not stop. I know he has done it to other YW, and I know now that he's been doing it for decades. However, I am watching in real time as family members and ward/stake leaders continue to obstruct, protect, deflect, deny, and minimize what is happening. It is tearing my extended family apart--or rather, my extended family is 100% united in supporting the abuser over the children. It is absolutely bizarre how well LDS people are programmed to ignore abuse and avoid dealing with it, and how our culture is programmed to enable it and support the male priesthood perpetrators. Because of my child speaking up, he has lost his job, hopefully will be excommunicated, and might possibly be charged, but I have no idea whether the case is strong enough to not be plead down to nothing.

I 100% believe this is happening and all these news stories are true because I see how I literally sit in meetings with leadership and bring up these stories and they make excuses (that's just one bishop, we would never do it that way) while they do the same damn thing toward my children. When this whole scenario goes public, if other victims come forward, I believe there will be grounds for a lawsuit at least against some family members who helped him get a job working with children and helped keep it off his background checks. I believe that there are many members of my stake who may leave the church.

As of last night, this individual is still planning to come to the family reunion, and he's welcomed with full fellowship by the family. My husband emailed those with children and let them know exactly what he has done to others so they can be informed and protect their children--we were NOT informed and family doesn't see that as a problem. The response to his email? *crickets*

I am starting to believe Mormonism is a cancer that destroys your frontal lobe.

I have really struggled with how so many members think child sexual abuse is less of a sin than, oh, say, masturbation. It just boggles my mind. It is a story I won’t get into about why my supervisor wanted me to deal with my fears and put me as leader of an offenders support group. But I ended up an adult survivor of incest as professional facilitator in a group of men who had raped children. And this was in Ogden UT, so most in the support group were Mormon child molesters. They would say things about raping their step daughter like, “At least I didn’t commit adultery.” Ummmm, let’s see, he is still married, so at the very least it qualifies as adultery. He was unfaithful to his wife——with her four year old daughter!!! And he thinks raping a child is LESS serious than having sex with a willing, knowledgeable, adult female???

But then I went off to grad school in Texas. I decided to do a research paper about the factors in male thinking that allow a man to commit incest. I found one book that broke offenders down by religion, and he analyzed the traits in religion (without naming specific denominations) such as male only priesthood. (The exception was Jews, he named them as an exception to some of the traits) but his religious traits that seemed to lead to a greater tendency to commit incest were:
1. Male only priesthood
2. Strong emphasis on family and pressure to keep the family intact
3. Strong emphasis on traditional gender roles.
4. History of strange sexual practices, such as polygamy.

Now, can you think of any other religion that this description fits better than Mormons?

You can see that the same things that lead to more abuse in the family also contribute to the desire to cover it up. Male only priesthood gives a sense that even abusive males are more important than females. So, individually, it gives a sense of entitlement, but within the group, it leads to a higher value placed on males. The men all know that the men are more important, and as long as it isn’t their daughter, they are fine with sweeping it under the rug. And, well, abuse being exposed is what causes the family breakup. As long as it is hidden, no one suffers except the victim. Breaking up the family, as wives tend to do when they find out, is more serious than that one child’s wellbeing. The traditional gender roles, well, what are women FOR? And so what if she is only a child? It is just sex. No biggy, no harm done. And in the individual families, the strong emphasis on roles, means a man does not marry an individual. He marries someone to preform the “wife” role. And if his wife does not perform that role to his satisfaction, then he turns to the closes available performer of the role, his daughter, and she becomes “junior wife”. And, well, I won’t bother with the polygamy thing and how early Mormons would marry a widow and her daughter or two sisters giving a modern man “permission” to have sex with a step daughter or wife’s younger sister.


OK, I need to go do something else, because this topic makes me crazy.

[Hagoth]

1. Male only priesthood
2. Strong emphasis on family and pressure to keep the family intact
3. Strong emphasis on traditional gender roles.
4. History of strange sexual practices, such as polygamy.

Yeah, that pretty much covers everything but the green jello.

[IT_Veteran]

Alas - I just started listening to “Under the Banner of Heaven” two days ago. Damn if it isn’t rife with examples of that. I’m only 2 1/2 hours in, but it’s pretty heartbreaking to hear how the FLDS women are treated. Recognizing that they’re living Mormonism as it’s early leaders intended is more so.

[Hagoth]

I guess everybody can see what's going on except the men at the top.

From this weeks SL Tribune article about new apostles Soares and Gong:

In speaking to Brady McCombs of The Associated Press, Gong and Soares echoed recent comments by top leaders that the religion has “zero tolerance” for abuse.

Soares said that when abuse “comes to light, the church acts” and tries to support the victim of the abuse as well as the person who is accused.

Really? Zero tolerance? Support the victim? I think I just found another entry for the church-speak dictionary: Victim: a priesthood holder accused of sexual crimes.

[Thoughtful]

I have alluded to this earlier, but over the last few months it's become apparent that my stake and extended family engaged in a cover up of significant pedophilia at the hands of a member of the ward. When my child became victimized, I spoke up, loudly and with the police department, and they are finally--FINALLY proceeding with a disciplinary council--as so I've been told. Last I heard they were debating ward vs stake level. I learned last week that another YW in another ward in my building was also bothered (stalked) but not assaulted by this individual. She reported it to her bishop and nothing was done other than "talking to him" and he did not stop. I know he has done it to other YW, and I know now that he's been doing it for decades. However, I am watching in real time as family members and ward/stake leaders continue to obstruct, protect, deflect, deny, and minimize what is happening. It is tearing my extended family apart--or rather, my extended family is 100% united in supporting the abuser over the children. It is absolutely bizarre how well LDS people are programmed to ignore abuse and avoid dealing with it, and how our culture is programmed to enable it and support the male priesthood perpetrators. Because of my child speaking up, he has lost his job, hopefully will be excommunicated, and might possibly be charged, but I have no idea whether the case is strong enough to not be plead down to nothing.

I 100% believe this is happening and all these news stories are true because I see how I literally sit in meetings with leadership and bring up these stories and they make excuses (that's just one bishop, we would never do it that way) while they do the same damn thing toward my children. When this whole scenario goes public, if other victims come forward, I believe there will be grounds for a lawsuit at least against some family members who helped him get a job working with children and helped keep it off his background checks. I believe that there are many members of my stake who may leave the church.

As of last night, this individual is still planning to come to the family reunion, and he's welcomed with full fellowship by the family. My husband emailed those with children and let them know exactly what he has done to others so they can be informed and protect their children--we were NOT informed and family doesn't see that as a problem. The response to his email? *crickets*

I am starting to believe Mormonism is a cancer that destroys your frontal lobe.

I have really struggled with how so many members think child sexual abuse is less of a sin than, oh, say, masturbation. It just boggles my mind. It is a story I won’t get into about why my supervisor wanted me to deal with my fears and put me as leader of an offenders support group. But I ended up an adult survivor of incest as professional facilitator in a group of men who had raped children. And this was in Ogden UT, so most in the support group were Mormon child molesters. They would say things about raping their step daughter like, “At least I didn’t commit adultery.” Ummmm, let’s see, he is still married, so at the very least it qualifies as adultery. He was unfaithful to his wife——with her four year old daughter!!! And he thinks raping a child is LESS serious than having sex with a willing, knowledgeable, adult female???

But then I went off to grad school in Texas. I decided to do a research paper about the factors in male thinking that allow a man to commit incest. I found one book that broke offenders down by religion, and he analyzed the traits in religion (without naming specific denominations) such as male only priesthood. (The exception was Jews, he named them as an exception to some of the traits) but his religious traits that seemed to lead to a greater tendency to commit incest were:
1. Male only priesthood
2. Strong emphasis on family and pressure to keep the family intact
3. Strong emphasis on traditional gender roles.
4. History of strange sexual practices, such as polygamy.

Now, can you think of any other religion that this description fits better than Mormons?

You can see that the same things that lead to more abuse in the family also contribute to the desire to cover it up. Male only priesthood gives a sense that even abusive males are more important than females. So, individually, it gives a sense of entitlement, but within the group, it leads to a higher value placed on males. The men all know that the men are more important, and as long as it isn’t their daughter, they are fine with sweeping it under the rug. And, well, abuse being exposed is what causes the family breakup. As long as it is hidden, no one suffers except the victim. Breaking up the family, as wives tend to do when they find out, is more serious than that one child’s wellbeing. The traditional gender roles, well, what are women FOR? And so what if she is only a child? It is just sex. No biggy, no harm done. And in the individual families, the strong emphasis on roles, means a man does not marry an individual. He marries someone to preform the “wife” role. And if his wife does not perform that role to his satisfaction, then he turns to the closes available performer of the role, his daughter, and she becomes “junior wife”. And, well, I won’t bother with the polygamy thing and how early Mormons would marry a widow and her daughter or two sisters giving a modern man “permission” to have sex with a step daughter or wife’s younger sister.


OK, I need to go do something else, because this topic makes me crazy.

Do you recall which book that was?

[Palerider]

Having watched this and other similar issues and how the church reacts to them, I finally came to the conclusion that the LDS church has a very twisted concept of the principle of "forgiveness".

A quick foundational understanding:

In the Old Testament, previous to the law of Moses, when a man was offended he would take revenge in an all-out way. Similar to how we understand Mafia revenge.

You kill my son..... I'm going to kill you, your wife, all of your children and anyone else in your circle that I deem may be a threat. Cousins, uncles, etc. You get the picture.

Moses brought forth the principle of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. In essence, revenge could not be beyond what was warranted and was also to be done according to the Law.

Under New Testament law or the Law of Christ, we are asked to forbear revenge altogether, to not seek our own retribution and render unto Caesar (the government) that which is the government's right to prosecute. Although we do have a responsibility to see that the government fulfills it's responsability.

NONE OF THE ABOVE demands RECONCILIATION.

Reconciliation is a mystery principle to the darkened minds of most LDS members, especially their leadership. They do not comprehend it, they therefore cannot practice it.

Reconciliation is the complete re-acceptance, without reservation, of the offender by the offended. Reconciliation requires that the offender has not only filled all of the requirements of restitution but that a due time of established trustworthiness has been accomplished.

In many severe cases that established time of probation may NOT occur in this lifetime. Reconciliation cannot be demanded of the one who has been offended. The Lord only requires "forgiveness" not reconciliation.

Personally I see Joseph Smith's poor or naive (or corrupt?) understanding of forgiveness as setting the precedent for the darkened way that leadership sees it today. He set the tone by telling his cronies when they were caught with their pants down that he would excommunicate them today and re-instate them in a month or so. And all would be back to normal, wink, wink.

By demanding reconciliation of those who are unprepared to give it for those who have no business receiving it, church leadership does great damage to their devoted, naive followers. To me it is a sign that this is truly not the Lord’s church.

[Thoughtful]

Having watched this and other similar issues and how the church reacts to them, I finally came to the conclusion that the LDS church has a very twisted concept of the principle of "forgiveness".

A quick foundational understanding:

In the Old Testament, previous to the law of Moses, when a man was offended he would take revenge in an all-out way. Similar to how we understand Mafia revenge.

You kill my son..... I'm going to kill you, your wife, all of your children and anyone else in your circle that I deem may be a threat. Cousins, uncles, etc. You get the picture.

Moses brought forth the principle of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. In essence, revenge could not be beyond what was warranted and was also to be done according to the Law.

Under New Testament law or the Law of Christ, we are asked to forbear revenge altogether, to not seek our own retribution and render unto Caesar (the government) that which is the government's right to prosecute. Although we do have a responsibility to see that the government fulfills it's responsability.

NONE OF THE ABOVE demands RECONCILIATION.

Reconciliation is a mystery principle to the darkened minds of most LDS members, especially their leadership. They do not comprehend it, they therefore cannot practice it.

Reconciliation is the complete re-acceptance, without reservation, of the offender by the offended. Reconciliation requires that the offender has not only filled all of the requirements of restitution but that a due time of established trustworthiness has been accomplished.

In many severe cases that established time of probation may NOT occur in this lifetime. Reconciliation cannot be demanded of the one who has been offended. The Lord only requires "forgiveness" not reconciliation.

Personally I see Joseph Smith's poor or naive (or corrupt?) understanding of forgiveness as setting the precedent for the darkened way that leadership sees it today. He set the tone by telling his cronies when they were caught with their pants down that he would excommunicate them today and re-instate them in a month or so. And all would be back to normal, wink, wink.

By demanding reconciliation of those who are unprepared to give it for those who have no business receiving it, church leadership does great damage to their devoted, naive followers. To me it is a sign that this is truly not the Lord’s church.

Love this, thanks for taking the time to put down these thoughts.

[Palerider]

Love this, thanks for taking the time to put down these thoughts.

You're welcome Thoughtful.

This happens to be one of my big pet peeves.

Every time I hear of some idiot Bishop or family member telling a wife whose husband just got caught cheating on her, abusing the kids, beating on her, molesting the neighbor kids, just the week before, that she needs to "forgive" him and get over it......I want to get my own baseball bat and see how they like it.

It's shear stupidity but they're all bobble-head dolls and leadership does nothing to change the policy or teaching.

[Thoughtful]

Love this, thanks for taking the time to put down these thoughts.

You're welcome Thoughtful.

This happens to be one of my big pet peeves.

Every time I hear of some idiot Bishop or family member telling a wife whose husband just got caught cheating on her, abusing the kids, beating on her, molesting the neighbor kids, just the week before, that she needs to "forgive" him and get over it......I want to get my own baseball bat and see how they like it.

It's shear stupidity but they're all bobble-head dolls and leadership does nothing to change the policy or teaching.

It appears that, in the name of "reconciliation" we are to have a meeting with my ILs this week. I'm needing to gather my thoughts because I want to be very clear that WE will not ever be reconciling with the abuser, (and if anyone else's allows their children around him, they are accomplices, but that's on them, not me). And as far as reconciling with my ILs, it's not going to happen quickly because trust must be earned, and it won't be happening at all if my ILs cannot see the reality of the situation.

Bobble head is a good descriptor. It works with a missing frontal lobe.. ha! I don't stand to lose much by losing my ILs, but Spouseman has had a lot more good experiences with them than I have had.

[Palerider]

...it's not going to happen quickly because trust must be earned, and it won't be happening at all if my ILs cannot see the reality of the situation.

+1

The recidivism rate (tendency of a criminal to reoffend) is very high among child molesters, like around 90%.

Only an idiot would invite them to a function with bunches of little kids around. Even if they don't offend right at that moment, it's a huge trigger for them. They go home thinking about those kids.

Stick by your guns. Don't be afraid of losing a relationship with people who live in a fantasy world. When they grow up they will come back and seek you out.

[IT_Veteran]

...it's not going to happen quickly because trust must be earned, and it won't be happening at all if my ILs cannot see the reality of the situation.

+1

The recidivism rate (tendency of a criminal to reoffend) is very high among child molesters, like around 90%.

Only an idiot would invite them to a function with bunches of little kids around. Even if they don't offend right at that moment, it's a huge trigger for them. They go home thinking about those kids.

Stick by your guns. Don't be afraid of losing a relationship with people who live in a fantasy world. When they grow up they will come back and seek you out.

I'd say it's probably even higher than 90% when they've never been prosecuted or otherwise disciplined. Especially when people close to the offender don't take precautions with their own kids because they don't want to offend him.