A Robust Sexual Ethic

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Palerider
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Re: A Robust Sexual Ethic

Post by Palerider » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:40 pm

alas wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:40 am
There were also temples to the fertility goddess, that you see in the Bible, where men would pay tribute to the goddess and then “worship” by having sex with a priestess. This was how Tamar got her father in law to give her a child, she pretended to be a temple priestess and took his tribute had sex with him, then used his tribute to prove his paternity.
Just wondering if you had an additional insight regarding Tamar and Judah that I am not aware of?

The portrayal above isn't Biblically supported. As far as it reads there is no mention of any Temple in the area where Judah was going to sheer his sheep and Tamar is described as feigning the role of a simple prostitite not a priestess.

But that being said, the idea of a matriarchal society is one that I haven't given a lot of thought to being a relatively traditional "Western" male.
It seems like at some point men wanted the ability to say with certainty "that child over there is offspring directly from me". It becomes easy to see why a contractual marriage to a virgin would have become desireable, at least to men.

Something more to think about...
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

Thoughtful
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Re: A Robust Sexual Ethic

Post by Thoughtful » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:22 am

Palerider wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:40 pm
alas wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:40 am
There were also temples to the fertility goddess, that you see in the Bible, where men would pay tribute to the goddess and then “worship” by having sex with a priestess. This was how Tamar got her father in law to give her a child, she pretended to be a temple priestess and took his tribute had sex with him, then used his tribute to prove his paternity.
Just wondering if you had an additional insight regarding Tamar and Judah that I am not aware of?

The portrayal above isn't Biblically supported. As far as it reads there is no mention of any Temple in the area where Judah was going to sheer his sheep and Tamar is described as feigning the role of a simple prostitite not a priestess.

But that being said, the idea of a matriarchal society is one that I haven't given a lot of thought to being a relatively traditional "Western" male.
It seems like at some point men wanted the ability to say with certainty "that child over there is offspring directly from me". It becomes easy to see why a contractual marriage to a virgin would have become desireable, at least to men.

Something more to think about...
I've heard Alas' version of Tamar taught in LDS Sunday School and Sunday for whatever that's worth, that this story is about temple "prostitution".

When God Was a Woman by Merlin Stone discusses it as well, briefly, about Tamar but in depth about religious rites around "prostitution" were widespread as part of the goddess cults/ religions and also discusses in depth how references to the goddess religions as well as practices were removed from culture and writings in a concerted attempt to eliminate them from the culture. Discussions of goddess temple rites would be written as "worship of pagan idols". It's a good read and pretty well referenced.

There's a documentary on Netflix called The Rise of Woman that discusses this as well.

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Palerider
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Re: A Robust Sexual Ethic

Post by Palerider » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:19 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:22 am
Palerider wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:40 pm
alas wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:40 am
There were also temples to the fertility goddess, that you see in the Bible, where men would pay tribute to the goddess and then “worship” by having sex with a priestess. This was how Tamar got her father in law to give her a child, she pretended to be a temple priestess and took his tribute had sex with him, then used his tribute to prove his paternity.
Just wondering if you had an additional insight regarding Tamar and Judah that I am not aware of?

The portrayal above isn't Biblically supported. As far as it reads there is no mention of any Temple in the area where Judah was going to sheer his sheep and Tamar is described as feigning the role of a simple prostitite not a priestess.

But that being said, the idea of a matriarchal society is one that I haven't given a lot of thought to being a relatively traditional "Western" male.
It seems like at some point men wanted the ability to say with certainty "that child over there is offspring directly from me". It becomes easy to see why a contractual marriage to a virgin would have become desireable, at least to men.

Something more to think about...
I've heard Alas' version of Tamar taught in LDS Sunday School and Sunday for whatever that's worth, that this story is about temple "prostitution".

When God Was a Woman by Merlin Stone discusses it as well, briefly, about Tamar but in depth about religious rites around "prostitution" were widespread as part of the goddess cults/ religions and also discusses in depth how references to the goddess religions as well as practices were removed from culture and writings in a concerted attempt to eliminate them from the culture. Discussions of goddess temple rites would be written as "worship of pagan idols". It's a good read and pretty well referenced.

There's a documentary on Netflix called The Rise of Woman that discusses this as well.

Interesting.....I'll have to look into this.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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alas
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Re: A Robust Sexual Ethic

Post by alas » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:33 pm

Palerider wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:40 pm
alas wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:40 am
There were also temples to the fertility goddess, that you see in the Bible, where men would pay tribute to the goddess and then “worship” by having sex with a priestess. This was how Tamar got her father in law to give her a child, she pretended to be a temple priestess and took his tribute had sex with him, then used his tribute to prove his paternity.
Just wondering if you had an additional insight regarding Tamar and Judah that I am not aware of?

The portrayal above isn't Biblically supported. As far as it reads there is no mention of any Temple in the area where Judah was going to sheer his sheep and Tamar is described as feigning the role of a simple prostitite not a priestess.

But that being said, the idea of a matriarchal society is one that I haven't given a lot of thought to being a relatively traditional "Western" male.
It seems like at some point men wanted the ability to say with certainty "that child over there is offspring directly from me". It becomes easy to see why a contractual marriage to a virgin would have become desireable, at least to men.

Something more to think about...
It IS supported by the text if you read correctly. When Judah sends his servant with the kid in payment, and the servant does not find her where Judah said, the servant asks after her, “Where is the *cult* prostitute that sits by the road.” ( * is mine to point out that Judah told his servant that she was one of the religious prostitutes) Other translations say “temple prostitute” or “temple priestess” see, the various translations do the same thing as Mormonism does to Debra by calling her a friend of Barack rather than a prophetess or priestess, or his commanding officer. They translate it according to their own culture, rather than finding out about the culture at the time. So, people who worship one God, do not see a woman taking tribute to her fertility goddess in exchange for sex as a priestess, but a prostitute. So, they translate it accordingly. Tamar dressed up as a priestess of the fertility goddess, that Judah would recognize as selling sex, and he bought sex. But, another clue, what Judah did was not a sin, because he was worshipping one of the gods that his culture worshipped. The early transcribers of the books that became the Bible were trying to erase the other gods, call them false gods or pagan gods. So, they hid details, but there is still enough there to see what she actually did. See, early Israel was pagan. But we pretend they only worshipped the God of Abraham. But the God of Abraham was only of of several gods worshipped by early Israel. How many statues did Solomon have in his temple? Several to both different gods and some goddesses.

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Palerider
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Re: A Robust Sexual Ethic

Post by Palerider » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:44 pm

alas wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:33 pm
Palerider wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:40 pm
alas wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:40 am
There were also temples to the fertility goddess, that you see in the Bible, where men would pay tribute to the goddess and then “worship” by having sex with a priestess. This was how Tamar got her father in law to give her a child, she pretended to be a temple priestess and took his tribute had sex with him, then used his tribute to prove his paternity.
Just wondering if you had an additional insight regarding Tamar and Judah that I am not aware of?

The portrayal above isn't Biblically supported. As far as it reads there is no mention of any Temple in the area where Judah was going to sheer his sheep and Tamar is described as feigning the role of a simple prostitite not a priestess.

But that being said, the idea of a matriarchal society is one that I haven't given a lot of thought to being a relatively traditional "Western" male.
It seems like at some point men wanted the ability to say with certainty "that child over there is offspring directly from me". It becomes easy to see why a contractual marriage to a virgin would have become desireable, at least to men.

Something more to think about...
It IS supported by the text if you read correctly. When Judah sends his servant with the kid in payment, and the servant does not find her where Judah said, the servant asks after her, “Where is the *cult* prostitute that sits by the road.” ( * is mine to point out that Judah told his servant that she was one of the religious prostitutes) Other translations say “temple prostitute” or “temple priestess” see, the various translations do the same thing as Mormonism does to Debra by calling her a friend of Barack rather than a prophetess or priestess, or his commanding officer. They translate it according to their own culture, rather than finding out about the culture at the time. So, people who worship one God, do not see a woman taking tribute to her fertility goddess in exchange for sex as a priestess, but a prostitute. So, they translate it accordingly. Tamar dressed up as a priestess of the fertility goddess, that Judah would recognize as selling sex, and he bought sex. But, another clue, what Judah did was not a sin, because he was worshipping one of the gods that his culture worshipped. The early transcribers of the books that became the Bible were trying to erase the other gods, call them false gods or pagan gods. So, they hid details, but there is still enough there to see what she actually did. See, early Israel was pagan. But we pretend they only worshipped the God of Abraham. But the God of Abraham was only of of several gods worshipped by early Israel. How many statues did Solomon have in his temple? Several to both different gods and some goddesses.
I'll check this out. :)
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Palerider
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Re: A Robust Sexual Ethic

Post by Palerider » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:17 pm

alas wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:33 pm
Palerider wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:40 pm
alas wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:40 am
There were also temples to the fertility goddess, that you see in the Bible, where men would pay tribute to the goddess and then “worship” by having sex with a priestess. This was how Tamar got her father in law to give her a child, she pretended to be a temple priestess and took his tribute had sex with him, then used his tribute to prove his paternity.
Just wondering if you had an additional insight regarding Tamar and Judah that I am not aware of?

The portrayal above isn't Biblically supported. As far as it reads there is no mention of any Temple in the area where Judah was going to sheer his sheep and Tamar is described as feigning the role of a simple prostitite not a priestess.

But that being said, the idea of a matriarchal society is one that I haven't given a lot of thought to being a relatively traditional "Western" male.
It seems like at some point men wanted the ability to say with certainty "that child over there is offspring directly from me". It becomes easy to see why a contractual marriage to a virgin would have become desireable, at least to men.

Something more to think about...
It IS supported by the text if you read correctly. When Judah sends his servant with the kid in payment, and the servant does not find her where Judah said, the servant asks after her, “Where is the *cult* prostitute that sits by the road.” ( * is mine to point out that Judah told his servant that she was one of the religious prostitutes) Other translations say “temple prostitute” or “temple priestess” see, the various translations do the same thing as Mormonism does to Debra by calling her a friend of Barack rather than a prophetess or priestess, or his commanding officer. They translate it according to their own culture, rather than finding out about the culture at the time. So, people who worship one God, do not see a woman taking tribute to her fertility goddess in exchange for sex as a priestess, but a prostitute. So, they translate it accordingly. Tamar dressed up as a priestess of the fertility goddess, that Judah would recognize as selling sex, and he bought sex. But, another clue, what Judah did was not a sin, because he was worshipping one of the gods that his culture worshipped. The early transcribers of the books that became the Bible were trying to erase the other gods, call them false gods or pagan gods. So, they hid details, but there is still enough there to see what she actually did. See, early Israel was pagan. But we pretend they only worshipped the God of Abraham. But the God of Abraham was only of of several gods worshipped by early Israel. How many statues did Solomon have in his temple? Several to both different gods and some goddesses.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention alas and thoughtful. I've done some reading and it's been educational.

Although on another point, I've never been under the assumption that Israel only worshipped Jehovah. Anyone who takes the time to read the entire Old Testament would come to the obvious conclusion that Israel took forever to shake off the worship of Idols and other Gods.

It always comes as a surprise to me when some scholarly type presents the idea that Israel was polytheistic expecting it to be big news.

When it's presented, I always want to say, "No kidding".
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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alas
Posts: 2357
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Re: A Robust Sexual Ethic

Post by alas » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:00 am

Palerider wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:17 pm
alas wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:33 pm
Palerider wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:40 pm


Just wondering if you had an additional insight regarding Tamar and Judah that I am not aware of?

The portrayal above isn't Biblically supported. As far as it reads there is no mention of any Temple in the area where Judah was going to sheer his sheep and Tamar is described as feigning the role of a simple prostitite not a priestess.

But that being said, the idea of a matriarchal society is one that I haven't given a lot of thought to being a relatively traditional "Western" male.
It seems like at some point men wanted the ability to say with certainty "that child over there is offspring directly from me". It becomes easy to see why a contractual marriage to a virgin would have become desireable, at least to men.

Something more to think about...
It IS supported by the text if you read correctly. When Judah sends his servant with the kid in payment, and the servant does not find her where Judah said, the servant asks after her, “Where is the *cult* prostitute that sits by the road.” ( * is mine to point out that Judah told his servant that she was one of the religious prostitutes) Other translations say “temple prostitute” or “temple priestess” see, the various translations do the same thing as Mormonism does to Debra by calling her a friend of Barack rather than a prophetess or priestess, or his commanding officer. They translate it according to their own culture, rather than finding out about the culture at the time. So, people who worship one God, do not see a woman taking tribute to her fertility goddess in exchange for sex as a priestess, but a prostitute. So, they translate it accordingly. Tamar dressed up as a priestess of the fertility goddess, that Judah would recognize as selling sex, and he bought sex. But, another clue, what Judah did was not a sin, because he was worshipping one of the gods that his culture worshipped. The early transcribers of the books that became the Bible were trying to erase the other gods, call them false gods or pagan gods. So, they hid details, but there is still enough there to see what she actually did. See, early Israel was pagan. But we pretend they only worshipped the God of Abraham. But the God of Abraham was only of of several gods worshipped by early Israel. How many statues did Solomon have in his temple? Several to both different gods and some goddesses.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention alas and thoughtful. I've done some reading and it's been educational.

Although on another point, I've never been under the assumption that Israel only worshipped Jehovah. Anyone who takes the time to read the entire Old Testament would come to the obvious conclusion that Israel took forever to shake off the worship of Idols and other Gods.

It always comes as a surprise to me when some scholarly type presents the idea that Israel was polytheistic expecting it to be big news.

When it's presented, I always want to say, "No kidding".
I guess those of us who know that early Israel was polytheistic want to scream sometimes when people portray it as the people of Israel were monotheistic in an environment of other groups who were polytheistic and how they were constantly fighting their neighbors. Things like when Moses made a staff with a snake on it, that was NOT representing Christ, but the Goddess of wisdom. That snake who came to Eve in the garden of Eden, the goddess of wisdom. The male father god wanted to keep his pet humans as pets, but the goddess of wisdom wanted to give them wisdom, so they would become independent beings rather than obedient pets. And sure, just like domestic dogs and cats live better and longer than their free counter parts, we humans have a harder life when we are not pets.

The story of King Arthur is another story that gets twisted when we try to understand it without understanding the matrilineal culture of the pagans and how it transitioned into a patrilineal culture under Christianity. See, Arthur was the NEPHEW of the old king, and who championed him for king, a wizard (pagan, just like “witch” was a word for pagan) and who was the fight for the next king between, the son of Arthur’s sister (Christians claim there was incest between Arthur and his sister because they can’t comprehend the “true heir” being the son of his sister) Morgan la Fey (Fey is another word for the old pagans in the English language) Lancelot was Aurthur’s son through Genovear, explains the close relation between them, and Genovear was Christian. So there was a huge fight between the Christians and the pagans over who was heir to the kingdom. Gen gets condemned to execution by the pagans for treason, because she was championing her son as heir, and Lance rides in to save her. The story does not need incest and adultery to explain things. But people want to understand it from a purely patriarchal perspective so they make villains out of the pagans and pretend their customs were the same as the patriarchal ones of the Christians.

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