Appologetic quandry of the warrior gene

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RubinHighlander
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Appologetic quandry of the warrior gene

Post by RubinHighlander » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:00 am

Just some thoughts from the commute this morning. The recent threads on apologetics and another topic on the warrior gene seem to have crossed paths in my mind this morning. If you have not heard of the warrior gene, here's a primer:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... in-or-hero

As I think back to when I was in the military and also a TBM, I remember having these emotions about the last days and defending the church. Indeed I remember a few talks and testimonies where I was strongly defending the church, some triggered by the Xwife convincing my kids to leave the church. Now I don't know if I actually have this pre-disposition of the warrior gene or not, but I wonder if for some full on apologists, if this might play into their make up. I mean, for me the evidence became overwhelming and my shelf finally broke and I had to admit I was wrong. For these guys that full on read and study all the evidence, yet still choose to defend it as false and the church as true, I think there's much more at play here.

Now I can't stereo type, there's obviously a mix of those that do it because they make money, some like the recognition, others full on drink more koolaid than anyone else and feel like they are one of the Lord's elite special forces navy seals. I think it's that last group I'm referring to here, as far as a potential genetic pre-disposition to being the warriors of their tribe. We are finding out that genetics have a lot to do with our behaviors. Now I would hope that the size of our brains can overcome all this tribalism, but overall it's just easier to slip back into your basic genetic makeup and let instinct and nature lead the way. It's like our subconscious is a mix of indoctrination and genetic predisposition; gotta keep that crap in check yo!

So if you are a navy seal special forces grunt in the trenches of a third world country and you get orders to torch a village, where would you stand? Would your nationalism overcome your own logic to justify a heinous action in the supposed greater good of the country/religion? Some would not question or hesitate, lying for the Lord. I think some of these zealous apologists and TBMs fall into this category and there's no successful arguing with them, even in some drawn out discussion where in all the detailed evidence is unemotionally laid out before them.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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moksha
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Re: Appologetic quandry of the warrior gene

Post by moksha » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:04 am

RubinHighlander wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:00 am
I think some of these zealous apologists and TBMs fall into this category ...
Sometimes I've seen apologists on the great and specious forum such as that unnamed Deseret News writer, Smac, and Pahoran mix things up in ways that seemed very uncivil. Sometimes many posters will become involved and pile on some board participant they disagree with over a Mormon issue. However, that seems a far cry from the Warrior Yahoos who carry out heinous mob atrocities like the Mountain Meadows and My Lai massacres. Rapings, pillagings, and murder seem more like the mass insanity of mobs rather than a specific genetic predisposition.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Gatorbait
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Re: Appologetic quandry of the warrior gene

Post by Gatorbait » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:44 pm

Wow, a really thought provoking post.

It brings to mind the theory heard many times as I was growing up, that some of the Alpha males or females, in the Church-the leaders- were "warriors" in the pre-mortal existence- Generals, not mere Captains in the war in heaven. Say, how did they fight that war in Heaven anyways? Flaming swords? That would be a eyebrow burner would it not? Is it not interesting how Jesus taught for all of us to be meek; yet the stories like the "stripling warriors" were taught over and over. Fight fight fight! We got it drummed into our noggins over and over again- at least I did.

Anyway, like good ol' Dan Peterson was quoted in Sunstone, "We did not pick this fight with the Church's critics, but we will not withdraw from it".(Sunstone 2004, May, Defending the Kingdom, Rethinking the Faith: How Apologetics is Reshaping Mormon Orthodoxy, J-C Duffy)
Dan goes on to say that he regrets that some may think less of he and other apologists for their efforts. You think? Yet ol' Dan is not alone. A lot of us have been in the trenches, fighting our hearts out for what we "knew" was the truth. Later, as RH mentioned- we found that the Church's critics were actually correct and then we had to admit that the fight we were fighting for the Church was not based on truth. Ouch.

Those loyal apologists- I don't know how they do it- they find out that the church is based on a bunch of (fill in the blank yourself) but they are not willing to lose face and all the money that they are making and fight the fight against the "dark side"...namely the Church's critics. Exhausting.

In any case, very good post RH. I'm reading it again for the second time.
"To be persuasive, we must be believable; to be believable we must be credible; to be credible we must be truthful." Edward R. Murrow

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Palerider
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Re: Appologetic quandry of the warrior gene

Post by Palerider » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:09 am

RubinHighlander wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:00 am

So if you are a navy seal special forces grunt in the trenches of a third world country and you get orders....
I have a brother IL who was career military. What I saw in his life was a high need for order and to have some of the responsibility of decision making removed from himself. Sort of a "Give me something I can believe in and then tell me what to do" attitude.

Order gives them a sense of place, where they belong in the world and the accompanying security of knowing that place.

Mormonism is huge on this. Order is everything. People who need order to this degree don't handle chaos well. And yet at times great things grow out of chaos.

Take order away from apologists and it's like taking away a child's security blanket. There's going to be some weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth. Big time resistance.

As many have mentioned, one of the mental states of leaving Mormonism is a sensation of being free-floating. The order has been removed and now people have to discover that the world didn’t collapse and that their footing can be regained in an exciting way. The world can be seen with a new sense of discovery instead of dread.

If only apologists realized they stunt their own spiritual and emotional growth by hanging on to their blankets and binkies so tightly.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Appologetic quandry of the warrior gene

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:42 pm

Gatorbait wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:44 pm
Wow, a really thought provoking post.

"We did not pick this fight with the Church's critics, but we will not withdraw from it".(Sunstone 2004, May, Defending the Kingdom, Rethinking the Faith: How Apologetics is Reshaping Mormon Orthodoxy, J-C Duffy)
Thanks for that quote, seems to support some of my premise.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Appologetic quandry of the warrior gene

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:46 pm

moksha wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:04 am
RubinHighlander wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:00 am
I think some of these zealous apologists and TBMs fall into this category ...
Sometimes I've seen apologists on the great and specious forum such as that unnamed Deseret News writer, Smac, and Pahoran mix things up in ways that seemed very uncivil. Sometimes many posters will become involved and pile on some board participant they disagree with over a Mormon issue. However, that seems a far cry from the Warrior Yahoos who carry out heinous mob atrocities like the Mountain Meadows and My Lai massacres. Rapings, pillagings, and murder seem more like the mass insanity of mobs rather than a specific genetic predisposition.
It does seem a far cry from the gun slinging sword swinging days, but can you see how the thought process evolves and leads men down those paths to justified murder? I think the reason so many are so very much in love with those stories of war that they fantasize they could be in it or may be part of it someday. It provides some mental gymnastics to make them feel great and strong by association. I used to do some of those gymnastics to try and make all the mundane mind numbing things seem worth while. Look how stirred up folks get over last days talk; they really want drama in their lives to try and make it real.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Appologetic quandry of the warrior gene

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:47 pm

Palerider wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:09 am
RubinHighlander wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:00 am

So if you are a navy seal special forces grunt in the trenches of a third world country and you get orders....
I have a brother IL who was career military. What I saw in his life was a high need for order and to have some of the responsibility of decision making removed from himself. Sort of a "Give me something I can believe in and then tell me what to do" attitude.

Order gives them a sense of place, where they belong in the world and the accompanying security of knowing that place.

Mormonism is huge on this. Order is everything. People who need order to this degree don't handle chaos well. And yet at times great things grow out of chaos.

Take order away from apologists and it's like taking away a child's security blanket. There's going to be some weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth. Big time resistance.

As many have mentioned, one of the mental states of leaving Mormonism is a sensation of being free-floating. The order has been removed and now people have to discover that the world didn’t collapse and that their footing can be regained in an exciting way. The world can be seen with a new sense of discovery instead of dread.

If only apologists realized they stunt their own spiritual and emotional growth by hanging on to their blankets and binkies so tightly.
Bingo!
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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Palerider
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Re: Appologetic quandry of the warrior gene

Post by Palerider » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:51 pm

Gatorbait wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:44 pm

Anyway, like good ol' Dan Peterson was quoted in Sunstone, "We did not pick this fight with the Church's critics, but we will not withdraw from it".(Sunstone 2004, May, Defending the Kingdom, Rethinking the Faith: How Apologetics is Reshaping Mormon Orthodoxy, J-C Duffy)
And here is another of the great lies of Mormonism. A fabrication designed to engender sympathy from the uninformed and non-critical thinker.

THE MORMONS DO PICK THIS FIGHT!!!

They have been picking it ever since the first LDS missionary went out and told someone, "Your religion is false and ours is true. If you don't join us you're going to hell."

To Danny boy the apologist:

What....??? You expect everyone to take that lying down? You expect everyone to just take your word for it that Joseph was a great and holy guy? Just bow their heads and say "yes"???
You don't expect anyone to do a little investigating, a little research??? You expect not to be asked the hard questions???

This fight was started completely by the Mormons but they will not be the ones to finish it. :x

You can't have it both ways. You can't tell people their religion is wrong and then feign victimhood when you get some serious blowback. Gutless coward.

Can you tell this is one that aggravates me? :roll:
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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