New GRAMA Request to BYUPD

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
Post Reply
consiglieri
Posts: 214
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:02 pm

New GRAMA Request to BYUPD

Post by consiglieri » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:47 pm

For those interested in such things, I just wanted to let you know I have drafted and mailed to the BYUPD a public disclosure request for any and all communications, including emails, relating to the decisions made by BYUPD to redact the police reports in the Joseph Bishop investigation; as well as the decisions made by BYUPD to refuse disclosure of the audio taped interview of Joseph Bishop.

And I specifically noted that the request covers all such communications including those with persons outside of the BYUPD.

Now that BYUPD can't hide behind the "we're not subject to GRAMA" argument anymore, this may prove to be interesting.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

User avatar
Just This Guy
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:30 pm
Location: Almost Heaven

Re: New GRAMA Request to BYUPD

Post by Just This Guy » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:27 pm

Make sure you include a copy of the applicable rulings with your request, just so there is no question that you mean business.

Image
Last edited by Just This Guy on Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

jfro18
Posts: 269
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:41 pm

Re: New GRAMA Request to BYUPD

Post by jfro18 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:30 pm

I'm interested to see how this goes... and of course even more interested to see how much info they end up turning over. Keep up the good fight!

User avatar
Corsair
Posts: 2012
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:58 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: New GRAMA Request to BYUPD

Post by Corsair » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:12 am

Help me understand this news story:

BYU will appeal judge’s ruling that its police department should be subject to Utah’s open-records laws

It looks like BYU really does not want to comply with GRAMA and this could be a delay at the very least. It also makes me wonder what other crazy things are being covered up.

User avatar
Just This Guy
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:30 pm
Location: Almost Heaven

Re: New GRAMA Request to BYUPD

Post by Just This Guy » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:35 am

Corsair wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:12 am
It looks like BYU really does not want to comply with GRAMA and this could be a delay at the very least. It also makes me wonder what other crazy things are being covered up.

That is probably the key here. My gut feeling is that the case of Miss Denson is small potatoes in the grand scheme of things. It just happened at the right time as the 2016 Honor code office case came to a close. The real meat is the other stuff that has not hit the light of day yet.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 1945
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: New GRAMA Request to BYUPD

Post by Hagoth » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:59 pm

Oh what a tangled web we weave...
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 1769
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: New GRAMA Request to BYUPD

Post by moksha » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:34 am

Corsair wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:12 am
BYU will appeal judge’s ruling that its police department should be subject to Utah’s open-records laws

It looks like BYU really does not want to comply with GRAMA and this could be a delay at the very least.
The easiest means to keep BYU police records sacred and secret would be to decertify its policing powers and turn such matters over to the Provo Police Department. The Church's chain of command to the police could be maintained via the employee's Church membership, but they would still be required to obey the law.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

User avatar
Just This Guy
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:30 pm
Location: Almost Heaven

Re: New GRAMA Request to BYUPD

Post by Just This Guy » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:45 pm

moksha wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:34 am
Corsair wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:12 am
BYU will appeal judge’s ruling that its police department should be subject to Utah’s open-records laws

It looks like BYU really does not want to comply with GRAMA and this could be a delay at the very least.
The easiest means to keep BYU police records sacred and secret would be to decertify its policing powers and turn such matters over to the Provo Police Department. The Church's chain of command to the police could be maintained via the employee's Church membership, but they would still be required to obey the law.

I think that one would have a LOT more ramifications to BYU than dragging their feet on releasing documents.

I'm no expert here, so feel free to correct me if you understand more than I do, but here are some of the things that could happen if BYU were to have ther certification pulled:

* All current criminal cases involving BYUPD would be thrown out because the law enforcement people on the case are not valid any more.
* Anyone who experienced force during an arrest could sue or even push for criminal charges against the officers involved.
* Anyone stoped by BYUPD could sue for unlawful imprisonment, search and seizure, etc.
* BYUPD would be unable to collect fines. People could likely sue to get fines returned to them as well.
* If the certification is revoked for failure to comply with GRAMA Laws. I could see plenty of lawyers suing BYU for imprisonment going back to when GRAMA was passed as they were operating under non complaint conditions.

Not knowing what they have hidden, likely the impact of being forced to reveal whatever they are hiding is much less damaging to BYU's wallet than loosing the BYUPD certification.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

User avatar
GoodBoy
Posts: 370
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:32 pm

Re: New GRAMA Request to BYUPD

Post by GoodBoy » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:06 pm

Hats off to you Consiglieri for the good work that you are doing! People's lives will be better in the future because of it.
Always been the good kid, but I wanted to know more, and to find and test truth.

User avatar
Archimedes
Posts: 188
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:22 am

Re: New GRAMA Request to BYUPD

Post by Archimedes » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:09 pm

I never understood how or why the BYU PD was given the full power of a real police department. BYU cops in my day drove around in Crown Vics with Cop motors and 12 gauge shotguns racked in the dash. I always wondered why they needed so much cop gear when they were only used for traffic enforcement. Wouldn't one of those 3 wheeled parking officer golf carts and a chalk clip be adequate?
"She never loved you; she loved the church, her one true love. She used you to marry the church by proxy."

-- unknown reddit poster

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 1769
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: New GRAMA Request to BYUPD

Post by moksha » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:00 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:45 pm
here are some of the things that could happen if BYU were to have their certification pulled:

* All current criminal cases involving BYUPD would be thrown out because the law enforcement people on the case are not valid any more.
* Anyone who experienced force during an arrest could sue or even push for criminal charges against the officers involved.
* Anyone stoped by BYUPD could sue for unlawful imprisonment, search and seizure, etc.
* BYUPD would be unable to collect fines. People could likely sue to get fines returned to them as well.
* If the certification is revoked for failure to comply with GRAMA Laws. I could see plenty of lawyers suing BYU for imprisonment going back to when GRAMA was passed as they were operating under non complaint conditions.

Not knowing what they have hidden, likely the impact of being forced to reveal whatever they are hiding is much less damaging to BYU's wallet than loosing the BYUPD certification.
Just to add to that list:
  • The Provo Police Department might refuse to check the BYU certified apartments of male students to see if they had girls on the premises and file a complete report with the BYU Wrath of the Elders Committee.
  • The Provo Police Department might report wrongdoing by Church employees.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

User avatar
Archimedes
Posts: 188
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:22 am

Re: New GRAMA Request to BYUPD

Post by Archimedes » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:38 pm

Which does not explain why the church needs a law enforcement group on the BYU campus. Separation of church and state anyone?
"She never loved you; she loved the church, her one true love. She used you to marry the church by proxy."

-- unknown reddit poster

User avatar
Just This Guy
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:30 pm
Location: Almost Heaven

Re: New GRAMA Request to BYUPD

Post by Just This Guy » Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:57 am

Private police forces at colleges and universities are pretty common across the US, so BYU is far from unique having their own cops that are certified as a full police force. Many universities, both public and private have their own police.

For a list of colleges in the US and Canada with their own police forces:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campus_police
This list is defiantly incomplete. I could add several more to what they have here.

When I went to West Virginia University, they would tell people in orientation that while they may drive minivans, they can still arrest you.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

User avatar
deacon blues
Posts: 760
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:37 am

Re: New GRAMA Request to BYUPD

Post by deacon blues » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:41 pm

Very interesting. I'm curious if private Christians universities like Liberty University in Virginia typically have police forces? The lists seem confined to public universities.
God is Love. God is Truth

IT_Veteran
Posts: 419
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:36 pm
Location: California

Re: New GRAMA Request to BYUPD

Post by IT_Veteran » Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:42 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:41 pm
Very interesting. I'm curious if private Christians universities like Liberty University in Virginia typically have police forces? The lists seem confined to public universities.
I recently attended my graduation at Liberty. I was an online student, so this was the first time I'd ever been on campus. I can confirm that they have their own police department.

A lot of the junior colleges in California have them as well.

User avatar
Just This Guy
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:30 pm
Location: Almost Heaven

Re: New GRAMA Request to BYUPD

Post by Just This Guy » Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:57 pm

Yup, Liberty University has their own police force. I remember that their cruisers are pretty bland in design. When I was in town last year, I almost missed that they were cop cars.

A few other private schools I know of with their own police and security departments.

Christain School
Notre Dame
West Virginia Weslyan
Villanova
Duke
Baylor

General Private Universities
Yale*
Harvard*
MIT
Stanford
Columbia

*I'm not sure of these count as Christian schools or not. They do have Divinity programs.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests