Joseph’s Masonic gnosticism

[Archimedes]

What right do you have to suggest the Emperor has no clothes?

Well, for one thing, I can see his John Thomas right there in Facsimile 2, Figure 7 !

ETA: !

That's not John Thomas it's Abraham.

Fig. 7. Represents God sitting upon his throne, revealing through the heavens the grand Key-words of the Priesthood; as, also, the sign of the Holy Ghost unto Abraham, in the form of a dove.

Said Abraham later, "I enjoyed they way He emphasized each key-word with a wave of the Wand of Power. Very dramatic."

[Not Buying It]

I don’t think Joseph ever got up in the morning and said “Hmm, my Church is getting a little stale, I need to find some gnostic ideas I can steal and make into doctrine”. I think he was a pretty creative, imaginative guy who realized he had to keep coming up with new stuff to keep his followers feeling more special than the rest of the world, but I think incorporating esoteric ideas into the Church was more organic, a natural result of his creative mind using whatever it had at hand, rather than the result of a dogged search for ideas he could steal. No Church leader since has had his creativity or vision, especially not President Nelson, who apparently thinks changing the name of “Home teaching” to “Ministering” is revelatory and visionary. But Joseph was a guy who could see a traveling mummy show and think “I can make up a story about these mummies and the scrolls that are with them that will really get my followers going”. Or become a mason and think “OK, I can work with this”. I think he was always using existing ideas, but I am not sure he was always searching with the conscious goal of finding something he could steal.

Think of L. Ron Hubbard. I am convinced he is the best corollary to Joseph in modern times. He was always coming up with new, crazy crap to impress his followers. He was incredibly imaginative and prolific. By the time he died he was pretty much deified by his followers, and they had a reached a critical mass that allowed scientology to go on without him. So it was with Mormonism - initially Joseph needed new ideas all the time to keep the thing going, but once he had a critical mass of followers who revered his name - helped considerably by a well-timed martyrdom to deify him even further - Mormonism could move forward without him.

Yes, Joseph constantly borrowed ideas, but I’m not sure how much it was due to a constant search for ideas to steal. I don’t think he was that strategic about it. I think he was creative enough he didn’t need to be.

[RubinHighlander]

And that is one of the root problems with needing "special knowledge" not shared with others, that makes gnosticism so odious. The more layers of esoteric knowledge one piles on before salvation is achieved the fewer successful candidates will qualify. From Christ's point of view it seemed like He wanted the doctrine to be as simple as possible in order to save as many as possible. Which brings up the second and third problems with gnosticism.

The Born Agains really hammer Mormons on this one. I remember scoffing at Scientologist over their complex structure of obtaining their version of salvation, like only L Ron was the only one to achieve it. I remember scoffing at born agains because of their simpleton view, like they didn't have all the lost ancient truths. Then at the same time I hated deep doctrinal discussions in EQ and GD and thirsted for a focus on the basics of the NT gospel, stripped of all the Mormon spin. As I look back it's amazing how much cogids I was dealing with and didn't even realize it. So very happy that's behind me now and I don't have to deal with it anymore; it's madness!

[Hagoth]

The irony is entertaining - phrases that stood out to me: “...They operate in secrecy...for the purpose of gaining power over the minds and actions of people.” (Hmmm) “Members of these...combinations are bound by secret oaths and covenants.” (Uh, huh) “...a secret combination was responsible for the final downfall of the Nephites.” (Replace ‘Nephites’ with ____)

And if that's not enough, they make you swear that you will not sell YOUR tokens for money, even as they are selling you THEIR tokens for money, at least as long as tithing is a recommend requirement.

[Hagoth]

Yes, Joseph constantly borrowed ideas, but I’m not sure how much it was due to a constant search for ideas to steal. I don’t think he was that strategic about it. I think he was creative enough he didn’t need to be.

I also think he was genuinely excited about those ideas, maybe in a way that felt like revelation to him. He knew he was plagiarizing some things and flat-out making some things up but I can imagine that when he came across something that sent a little tingle up his spine he thought, "a ha! the spirit is telling me that has some truth to it. It must be residue from some kind of lost knowledge, I'll incorporate it into my thing and thus restore it."

[Palerider]

I don’t think Joseph ever got up in the morning and said “Hmm, my Church is getting a little stale, I need to find some gnostic ideas I can steal and make into doctrine”. I think he was a pretty creative, imaginative guy who realized he had to keep coming up with new stuff to keep his followers feeling more special than the rest of the world, but I think incorporating esoteric ideas into the Church was more organic, a natural result of his creative mind using whatever it had at hand, rather than the result of a dogged search for ideas he could steal. No Church leader since has had his creativity or vision, especially not President Nelson, who apparently thinks changing the name of “Home teaching” to “Ministering” is revelatory and visionary. But Joseph was a guy who could see a traveling mummy show and think “I can make up a story about these mummies and the scrolls that are with them that will really get my followers going”. Or become a mason and think “OK, I can work with this”. I think he was always using existing ideas, but I am not sure he was always searching with the conscious goal of finding something he could steal.

Think of L. Ron Hubbard. I am convinced he is the best corollary to Joseph in modern times. He was always coming up with new, crazy crap to impress his followers. He was incredibly imaginative and prolific. By the time he died he was pretty much deified by his followers, and they had a reached a critical mass that allowed scientology to go on without him. So it was with Mormonism - initially Joseph needed new ideas all the time to keep the thing going, but once he had a critical mass of followers who revered his name - helped considerably by a well-timed martyrdom to deify him even further - Mormonism could move forward without him.

Yes, Joseph constantly borrowed ideas, but I’m not sure how much it was due to a constant search for ideas to steal. I don’t think he was that strategic about it. I think he was creative enough he didn’t need to be.

I look at it this way.

Once you go down that road of producing "new revelation" and you begin promising your followers further light and knowledge, sooner or later you have to produce. The D&C has numerous references to new power and knowledge being revealed from on high. The followers were commanded to prepare themselves, if I recall correctly.

Joseph had kind of painted himself into a corner. He needed new and exotic revelation which he had been promising in order to keep the thing solvent. So he would have been looking to find it.

At the same time he was battling apostates on every side. He also needed an instrument that would secure or at a minimum, determine who was loyal to him and who wasn't.

With Hiram's familiarity with Masonic rituals, I think it became an obvious fit that would accomplish both things in one go.

Was it more organic than calculating? Maybe. Maybe it was a guy in a fight who just reaches for the nearest heavy object that will give him some advantage.

But he was motivated by more than just survival. Joseph loved the adoration. He loved having control and power. Secret knowledge brings power. It's job security. He controlled the gateway to God and you only enter that gateway by pleasing Joseph. That is pretty calculating when you think about it. It's exactly the same method used anciently by gnostics in the early church. Perhaps his method of coming up with his crap doctrine on the fly was more organic. He had to be able to evolve along with the changing dynamics.

And that was his strength as a good con man among a mixed crowd of gullible people and people who were getting wise to his game.

Keep the wolves at bay while continuing to fleece the rest of the flock.

[deacon blues]

The irony is entertaining - phrases that stood out to me: “...They operate in secrecy...for the purpose of gaining power over the minds and actions of people.” (Hmmm) “Members of these...combinations are bound by secret oaths and covenants.” (Uh, huh) “...a secret combination was responsible for the final downfall of the Nephites.” (Replace ‘Nephites’ with ____)

And if that's not enough, they make you swear that you will not sell YOUR tokens for money, even as they are selling you THEIR tokens for money, at least as long as tithing is a recommend requirement.

Signs and tokens for %10 of your income🤭 wow you are so right!