Joseph’s Masonic gnosticism

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
User avatar
Palerider
Posts: 2261
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:44 am

Joseph’s Masonic gnosticism

Post by Palerider » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:44 pm

Discussing Masonry with Hagoth on another thread reminded me of something I've wanted to point out to people who might browse this website with questions regarding the esoteric nature of Mormon rituals, doctrine and ceremonies.

Gnosticism began among the Jews quite some time before the Christian era. So it wouldn't be surprising to see it enter the early church along with early Jewish converts.
After the loss of the Apostles who actually had to fight against gnosticism in their own day, it became a problem for early church fathers to deal with with varied success.

The reason I bring this up is because gnosticism or esoteric knowledge being necessary for salvation has always been a problem. It goes against the generally simple doctrine of Christ that he taught and which is found in the Biblical scriptures.

It is evident that Christ wanted to save as many people as possible. See John 3:17
"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

And that is one of the root problems with needing "special knowledge" not shared with others, that makes gnosticism so odious. The more layers of esoteric knowledge one piles on before salvation is achieved the fewer successful candidates will qualify. From Christ's point of view it seemed like He wanted the doctrine to be as simple as possible in order to save as many as possible. Which brings up the second and third problems with gnosticism.

ENVY.....and SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS

If the individual can be convinced that they hold "special power" or knowledge that others do not posess and that they are members of an elite club, it gives them a platform from which to judge the rest of the world. "I'm so much luckier and blessed than the rest of you who don't know what I know." ETA: Envy and self-righteousness are vices, emotions or character weaknesses that con men use to ply their marks.

And for those members who haven't quite made the grade yet, they look at those who have the special knowledge and power and continually envy them in the form of self-loathing. You don't generally hate yourself if you consider yourself to be on a par with those around you.

Masonry although possibly not connected directly to ancient gnosticism, definitely has gnostic elements in a more modern form since about the 16th century (I believe). Many argue that the mystical letter G in the Masonic symbol stands for gnosis.

For a con man, just as in ancient times, "gnosis" is a great tool for creating loyalty, a feeling of exclusivity, envy and desire. There's nothing quite like having the key to the executive bathroom....except wanting the key to the executive bathroom...

Joseph's twisting of Masonic rituals into a modern form of gnosticism was the perfect way to achieve his ends in aquiring wealth, adoration, women and loyalty. But in reality this is a very ancient malady that the original Apostles fought to keep out of the church.

1 Timothy 6:20-21

"Oh Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge”—

Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen."

We should ask ourselves, "If God wants to save as many as possible, would he make His Gospel more complex, difficult to attain and understand or would He want a simpler, more elegant solution? Have faith, be believing, keep my commandments." ;)
Last edited by Palerider on Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

User avatar
Sheamus Moore
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:16 pm

Re: Joseph’s gnosticism

Post by Sheamus Moore » Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:34 pm

I’m guessing the Church would be quick to point out the difference between salvation and exaltation. “Sure Christ wanted to save as many as possible so he dumbed things down and kept it simple so that even morons could make it to non-VIP Telestial Kingdom - thus, ‘saved’.” I can hear it - just not that snarky.

User avatar
Palerider
Posts: 2261
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:44 am

Re: Joseph’s gnosticism

Post by Palerider » Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:57 pm

Sheamus Moore wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:34 pm
I’m guessing the Church would be quick to point out the difference between salvation and exaltation. “Sure Christ wanted to save as many as possible so he dumbed things down and kept it simple so that even morons could make it to non-VIP Telestial Kingdom - thus, ‘saved’.” I can hear it - just not that snarky.
Of course!

Not having the mental agility to recognize that the concept of exaltation and a "Celestial Kingdom" is a synthesized "special knowledge" that only they possess.... :roll:
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 7119
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Joseph’s Masonic gnosticism

Post by Hagoth » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:17 pm

Interesting observations, Palerider. I guess the entire temple experience falls into this category, and especially the Second Anointing. What do you think of the notion that the degrees of glory were invented as a substitute for the degrees of masonry in Joseph's "Celestial Masonry?"
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Reuben
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:01 pm

Re: Joseph’s Masonic gnosticism

Post by Reuben » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:51 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:17 pm
Interesting observations, Palerider. I guess the entire temple experience falls into this category, and especially the Second Anointing. What do you think of the notion that the degrees of glory were invented as a substitute for the degrees of masonry in Joseph's "Celestial Masonry?"
Interesting idea. You even progress through them in the temple, even though that idea doesn't make a ton of sense doctrinally.

At the end of the "third" degree, you gain the most precious secret knowledge: the name of God. At least it's not Mah-Ha-Bone, amirite??
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

User avatar
Palerider
Posts: 2261
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:44 am

Re: Joseph’s Masonic gnosticism

Post by Palerider » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:27 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:17 pm
Interesting observations, Palerider. I guess the entire temple experience falls into this category, and especially the Second Anointing. What do you think of the notion that the degrees of glory were invented as a substitute for the degrees of masonry in Joseph's "Celestial Masonry?"
It's hard to resist the idea that one probably spawned the other.
Combine that concept with 1st Corinthians 15:40 speaking of bodies terrestrial and bodies celestial, then tweak the whole thing a little and you have three separate kingdoms.
But the indications in Corinthians are very weak by themselves. For the most part it only differentiates between earthly/terrestrial bodies and those after the resurrection which will be Celestial/Heavenly bodies.

Personally, I see no reason why there couldn't be bodies of differing glories all residing in the Heavenly realm. It certainly won't hurt my feelings if someone there shines a little more brightly than I do. That’s God's decision not mine....but I digress.

When Joseph slips in a second kingdom of "almost made its" (Terrestrial.... [Invention of Telestial becomes third]) he tells us we can be good and honorable and still not live with God. Again with the "You didn’t get the signs and tokens and you didn’t work your butt off for the church" thing. So close, and yet so far....

You weren't really one of the special or valiant ones with special power and knowledge.....tsk, tsk.....

The Second Anointing is especially grievous in this way. It is rarely given and is considered to be extra extra top secret knowledge and power reserved for only the highest mucky mucks and most glorious grand poobahs.

Just think of the head trip that comes with that feather in one's cap. And the really tough part is you can't even tell anyone you have the super special knowledge or how righteous you really are. I can hardly breathe just thinking about it. :|
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 5095
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: Joseph’s gnosticism

Post by moksha » Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:27 am

Sheamus Moore wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:34 pm
“Sure Christ wanted to save as many as possible so he dumbed things down and kept it simple so that even morons could make it to non-VIP Telestial Kingdom - thus, ‘saved’.”
"There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to humans. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man’s fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. You have just crossed over into the Apologist's Zone."
-- Elder O. Rod Serling
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

User avatar
Corsair
Posts: 3080
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:58 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: Joseph’s Masonic gnosticism

Post by Corsair » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:00 am

This is a really interesting discussion and it remains the underlying reason for the existence of the LDS church. Lindsay Hansen Park of the "Year of Polygamy" podcast has stated that everything interesting in the LDS church can be explained by plural marriage.

Joseph Smith's gnosticism can be reasonably explained as secret knowledge that would let him marry additional wives. A chief argument of apologists is that Joseph was not driven simply by libido in his long process of accumulating dozens of wives. Instead, it seems that Joseph held himself on a higher status above the rank and file monogamists of early 19th century America. The privileges of being the Prophet of the Restoration gave Joseph the closely guarded right to enjoy relationships from a higher status. This was available only for the elite and worthy leaders of this Restoration church. It's very unclear what exactly was being restored, but the gnostic nature of the LDS church certainly embraced it.

User avatar
achilles
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:17 pm

Re: Joseph’s Masonic gnosticism

Post by achilles » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:48 am

When I think back to my experiences in the temple, and all I have read about and heard about on podcasts, I'm not entirely turned off. I like ritual, and kind of wish we had more of it in our worship. I like symbolism and all that jazz...

However, I also recall my first experience at the temple, surrounded by people I knew to be good, and yet still thinking "WTF? This isn't anything like the church I know!" And there are plenty of examples of the major difference between what happens on Sundays and what happens inside the temple. These things are not just conventions, either--they are enshrined in the doctrines in the scriptures.

The Book of Mormon clearly teaches a Doctrine of Christ that is simple and freely accessible to all--have faith in Christ, repent of your sins, be baptized and receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and keep on keeping on. There are no secret passwords or fancy rituals. Christ himself is at the gate. This Doctrine emphasizes who we become through the process of many of iterations of the Doctrine of Christ throughout our lives (you know, sanctification...)

I think Joseph was enamoured by Masonry for many reasons--but one really pops out to me, and that is secrecy. I'm sure his mind started turning when he saw a way to bind others to himself with secret oaths in order to conceal a secret practice. We all know what that practice is. And Joseph seems to attempt to retcon all of Mormonism in its final years to wrap it up with the temple, plural marriage, and exaltation.

Or maybe it is all line upon line... Either way, the secret gnosis of temple passwords and handshakes flies in the face of the preponderance of scriptural teachings about the simplicity of salvation in Christ. And I think this gnosis is qualitatively different from the correct knowledge of God that Joseph Smith insists is crucial to salvation.

Or so it seems to me...
“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”

― Carl Sagan

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 7119
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Joseph’s gnosticism

Post by Hagoth » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:14 am

moksha wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:27 am
Sheamus Moore wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:34 pm
“Sure Christ wanted to save as many as possible so he dumbed things down and kept it simple so that even morons could make it to non-VIP Telestial Kingdom - thus, ‘saved’.”
"There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to humans. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man’s fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. You have just crossed over into the Apologist's Zone."
-- Elder O. Rod Serling
Thank you Moskha! I haven't laughed that hard in a long time. You don't know how much we love you.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 7119
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Joseph’s Masonic gnosticism

Post by Hagoth » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:29 am

achilles wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:48 am
When I think back to my experiences in the temple, and all I have read about and heard about on podcasts, I'm not entirely turned off. I like ritual, and kind of wish we had more of it in our worship. I like symbolism and all that jazz...

However, I also recall my first experience at the temple, surrounded by people I knew to be good, and yet still thinking "WTF? This isn't anything like the church I know!" And there are plenty of examples of the major difference between what happens on Sundays and what happens inside the temple. These things are not just conventions, either--they are enshrined in the doctrines in the scriptures.

The Book of Mormon clearly teaches a Doctrine of Christ that is simple and freely accessible to all--have faith in Christ, repent of your sins, be baptized and receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and keep on keeping on. There are no secret passwords or fancy rituals. Christ himself is at the gate. This Doctrine emphasizes who we become through the process of many of iterations of the Doctrine of Christ throughout our lives (you know, sanctification...)

I think Joseph was enamoured by Masonry for many reasons--but one really pops out to me, and that is secrecy. I'm sure his mind started turning when he saw a way to bind others to himself with secret oaths in order to conceal a secret practice. We all know what that practice is. And Joseph seems to attempt to retcon all of Mormonism in its final years to wrap it up with the temple, plural marriage, and exaltation.

Or maybe it is all line upon line... Either way, the secret gnosis of temple passwords and handshakes flies in the face of the preponderance of scriptural teachings about the simplicity of salvation in Christ. And I think this gnosis is qualitatively different from the correct knowledge of God that Joseph Smith insists is crucial to salvation.

Or so it seems to me...
The preceding words should be framed and hung in every LDS home, right between The Proclamation and that faux-marble statue of Joseph giving Emma a coin to kick-start the Relief Society, if for no other reason than to remind us every day of how startling/unsettling/horrifying that first temple experience was for all of us, whether we are willing to admit it or not, and how far this thing has gone astray.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 7119
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Joseph’s Masonic gnosticism

Post by Hagoth » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:46 am

It seems like Josephs Smith put his feelers out as far and wide as he could in all directions and pulled back a motley assemblage of ideas, rituals, and scientific-slash-mystical concepts that became the weird fabric of this church. Since then others (I'm looking at you, Joseph Fielding Smith!) have continued to weave more of the philosophies-of-men-mingled-with-scripture into the cloth until we had this thing that we were all raised to experience as something of great depth, when in reality it is just breadth masquerading as depth. Rather than mysteries inside of mysteries, it's a bunch of unnecessary complexities leading back to Joseph's (kinda juvenile) secret-club, sacred-oath gnostic-ish fascinations and need to be the King of Bunker Hill.

ETA: sorry, my last few posts have been the products of sleep deprivation.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
achilles
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:17 pm

Re: Joseph’s Masonic gnosticism

Post by achilles » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:54 am

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:29 am
The preceding words should be framed and hung in every LDS home, right between The Proclamation and that faux-marble statue of Joseph giving Emma a coin to kick-start the Relief Society, if for no other reason than to remind us every day of how startling/unsettling/horrifying that first temple experience was for all of us, whether we are willing to admit it or not, and how far this thing has gone astray.
With WTF in a giant font...
“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”

― Carl Sagan

User avatar
achilles
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:17 pm

Re: Joseph’s Masonic gnosticism

Post by achilles » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:58 am

I think Joseph was enamoured by Masonry for many reasons--but one really pops out to me, and that is secrecy. I'm sure his mind started turning when he saw a way to bind others to himself with secret oaths in order to conceal a secret practice. We all know what that practice is. And Joseph seems to attempt to retcon all of Mormonism in its final years to wrap it up with the temple, plural marriage, and exaltation.
THIS, I just realized, is a secret combination--secret oaths with bloody penalties should the disciple disclose the underground practice of polygamy in Nauvoo. Yet another way that the Church we have differs greatly from the one described in the Book of Mormon...
“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”

― Carl Sagan

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 7119
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Joseph’s Masonic gnosticism

Post by Hagoth » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:29 pm

achilles wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:58 am
I think Joseph was enamoured by Masonry for many reasons--but one really pops out to me, and that is secrecy. I'm sure his mind started turning when he saw a way to bind others to himself with secret oaths in order to conceal a secret practice. We all know what that practice is. And Joseph seems to attempt to retcon all of Mormonism in its final years to wrap it up with the temple, plural marriage, and exaltation.
THIS, I just realized, is a secret combination--secret oaths with bloody penalties should the disciple disclose the underground practice of polygamy in Nauvoo. Yet another way that the Church we have differs greatly from the one described in the Book of Mormon...
I hope you're writing this all down for the awesome Sunstone presentation you're going to give next year, Achilles.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
Red Ryder
Posts: 4153
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:14 pm

Re: Joseph’s Masonic gnosticism

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:33 pm

Don't forget to add in Egyptomania to Smith's religious soup. It seems the Freemasons were also enamored by Egypt. Joseph Smith seemed to be caught up in both.

As a TBM, I often wondered why Joseph Smith was pulled into the Mummy business and linked it to the BOM origins and the translation of reformed Egyptian. It seems there was a fascination with all things Egyptian in the early 19 century including Mummy unwrapping parties. Smith was clearly caught up in some weird Freemason/Egyptian/Frontier Sex Cult and built his religion on all three.

Here's a fascinating article:
Victorian Egyptomania: How a 19th Century fetish for Pharaohs turned seriously spooky

https://www.historyanswers.co.uk/people ... ly-spooky/
The Freemasons had made use of Egyptian imagery and philosophy in their rituals since the late 18th Century as a way of setting out their own legitimacy and inventing an unbroken sense of heritage, but in tandem with Egyptomania – and in opposition to the Christian lens through which matters of life and death were being viewed –
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

User avatar
Palerider
Posts: 2261
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:44 am

Re: Joseph’s Masonic gnosticism

Post by Palerider » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:30 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:46 am
.... this thing that we were all raised to experience as something of great depth, when in reality it is just breadth masquerading as depth.
Really well put.

The problem is that so many, most in fact, cannot tell the difference! And if you try to tell them, they act as if you have committed a grievous sin. What right do you have to suggest the Emperor has no clothes?
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

User avatar
Palerider
Posts: 2261
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:44 am

Re: Joseph’s Masonic gnosticism

Post by Palerider » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:51 pm

achilles wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:58 am
I think Joseph was enamoured by Masonry for many reasons--but one really pops out to me, and that is secrecy. I'm sure his mind started turning when he saw a way to bind others to himself with secret oaths in order to conceal a secret practice.
THIS, I just realized, is a secret combination--secret oaths with blood penalties...
How ironic that in the end, the false prophet actually becomes or creates that which his false book of scripture warns against.....

Why does that seem so fitting in a way?
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 7119
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Joseph’s Masonic gnosticism

Post by Hagoth » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:35 pm

Palerider wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:30 pm
What right do you have to suggest the Emperor has no clothes?
Well, for one thing, I can see his John Thomas right there in Facsimile 2, Figure 7 !

ETA: !
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
Sheamus Moore
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:16 pm

Re: Joseph’s Masonic gnosticism

Post by Sheamus Moore » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:17 pm

THIS, I just realized, is a secret combination--secret oaths with bloody penalties should the disciple disclose the underground practice of polygamy in Nauvoo. Yet another way that the Church we have differs greatly from the one described in the Book of Mormon...

Funny, I was thinking along the same lines... http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Secret_Combinations

The irony is entertaining - phrases that stood out to me: “...They operate in secrecy...for the purpose of gaining power over the minds and actions of people.” (Hmmm) “Members of these...combinations are bound by secret oaths and covenants.” (Uh, huh) “...a secret combination was responsible for the final downfall of the Nephites.” (Replace ‘Nephites’ with ____)
Last edited by Sheamus Moore on Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests