Birds and the bees

[Arcturus]

Sorry if this has been posted before, but would like to get opinion on how to educate kids about sex. Sorry for the jumbled post, but I don’t know how to concisely raise the question.

For some quick perspective on what is motivating the post - my DW and I have left the church and we have young children (too young to really be affected by any of this). A fear I have of leaving the church is that it will be difficult to raise my children with morals without an institutional religion supporting you (I know there are issues on this topic if I were in the church too). That is, an irrational fear I have is that my kids may be more promiscuous than they would if they were in the church (or another structured religion).

However, I have come around on the topic of premarital sex to the extent that it is done responsibly. Though from personal experience (I was a pretty orthodox guy and was almost “exactly obedient” in my TBMness), I do not know if there is any pyschological or spiritual damage that befalls someone for not honoring the law of chastity (think Holland’s Souls, Symbols, and Sacraments). I’m even open to the idea of being supportive and possibly encouraging for my kids to live with their candidate spouses in the future before jumping into marriage, given the rate of marriage failure…

What I’m trying to get at is how do you think kids should be raised in approaching sex? I’d love to get feedback on how people think about it from a spiritual/theological stance. To what extent should I shield my kids from premarital sex? Is it harmful/okay to have a few or many sexual partners before marriage? Is it psychologically destructive as many Mormon leaders have taught?

[dogbite]

The reason adults don't like kids to have sex is that it's easy to make bad decisions about sex. adults make bad decisions about sex all the time. Being a kid pretty much means having poor judgement to start with and to add sex to the mix compounds the likelihood of a bad decision.

The same is also true of drugs and alcohol.

The moral side of the equation is about harm. Consent is required to avoid harm. Unwanted pregnanacy is harm, STD is harm. Cheating is about harm. Unless the consent is for an open relationship. And so on.

The drugs and alcohol issue also include a harm aspect.

[slavereeno]

That is, an irrational fear I have is that my kids may be more promiscuous than they would if they were in the church (or another structured religion).

I can really empathize with this feeling. DW and I are still at odds on this. My viewpoint has changed since my TBM days but I still have some things I would like taught my children. DW feels like we can't possibly know what is right or wrong, so we should just stick with the Mormon church guidelines. She argues, and she has some good points, that without some sexual morality things can just continue to get worse and worse in unhealthy ways. (Teen pregnancy, STDs, emotional problems, date rape) etc.

I have come to some basic do's and don'ts in my own mind but I don't know how to teach them without some formality or corroboration from somewhere else. Nevertheless, this is how I approached the topic recently with my kids (These are not in order of importance...)

Don't:
- Force sex on anyone, ever.
- Have sex when you are too young, you are just not ready for sex until later. The human brain isn't finished developing until the early 20s IMHO sex before then is just asking for trouble.
- Have casual sex. Why would you want to share something so physically intimate with someone you would be unwilling to be emotionally intimate with? There should be real commitment and love first.
- Get obsessed with sex. Sexual obsession is unhealthy in the same way that being OCD about hand washing is unhealthy, but it has greater social side effects.
- Mix violence/pain and sex. I think this can be a pathway to objectification and mistreatment.
- Have sex in public places or broadcast your sex acts. Since its about love and can be a great way for couples to share an intimacy this seems to cheapen the value of that from an emotional standpoint.
- Willingly bring a child into the world if you are not prepared to care for that child in a stable environment for at least the next 18 years
- Have sex with someone you don't know well enough that could expose you to STDs
- Be ashamed of your body

Do:
- Love whom you choose.
- Include sex as part of the bond between you and your loved one.
- Enjoy Sex
- Be adventurous and experiment with your partner.
- Bring children into this world when and if you are ready and committed to raising that child
- Respect your partner and prioritize their fulfillment as part of your sexual experience

I don't say anything about marriage, it can be a vehicle to facilitate a lot of the items, but its not the essential gate I was taught all my life. I am sure I am missing stuff.

[moksha]

Belonging to an organization that could assist in imparting to your children a good foundational set of ethics makes sense. Also, finding such an organization that does not fill these future adults with a lifelong sense of guilt and shame regarding sexuality seems important.

[Hopebeat]

I’m a person who, as a mormon child/teen, has never officially had “the talk” other then “don’t do anything wrong before marriage.” So feel free to take my opinions on this with a grain of salt

I would say, first of all, be direct. Not too wordy, but not too vague. Kids often don’t feel awkward hearing their parents talk about it, it’s the parents that make it awkward. If a kid can’t talk about the possible consequences of sex with the parents, how can you talk about them with their own partner? The parent relationship transfers over to their own relationships.

Teenagers
If we’re talking about teenagers, talk about consent. Explain it’s an adult thing to do and it has adult consequences that follow, not only possible pregnancy, but being vulnerable in that way as a young person can be emotionally damaging as well— I personally don’t think it’s for teenagers. After they’re 18-20 or off on their own it’s their choice. But they will most likely at least hear about it from friends and such in high school. I think you could tell them that as long as you are in a committed relationship and love the person it’s ok. Just be prepared for the adult things that could result from those actions (maybe talk about protection too after they reach a certain age). I think it’s only psychologically destructive if it’s not used responsibly. It’s kinda in the same camp as alcohol, just be careful and responsible.

Young children
If we’re talking about little kids, then I would still be direct and they don’t think it’s awkward unless you make it awkward. Tell them it’s not appropriate for people to touch them where their swimming suit covers them and if they feel uncomfortable around someone, to tell you the parents. I don’t think they need to know about sex until they hit puberty, but I have heard of little kids like 5-6yo talking about sex like in the very specific technical terms— which they probably still don’t know what they’re actually talking about anyway.

If you want to introduce sex as a general thing for this younger age I would explain it like mommy and dad love each other very much so we do things like kiss/date, you can do that when you’re older, and other adults that love each other do this. I would emphasize love and commitment a lot, so they remember that as they grow. I’ve had a bit of early childhood education training and teachers are not supposed to talk about anything sexual at that age— even directing the conversation away from the subject. Above all, try to keep it age appropriate and have open communication is key.

Hopefully that helps. That’s the advice I wish I was given growing up...

[Dravin]

What I’m trying to get at is how do you think kids should be raised in approaching sex? I’d love to get feedback on how people think about it from a spiritual/theological stance. To what extent should I shield my kids from premarital sex? Is it harmful/okay to have a few or many sexual partners before marriage?

I'm gonna preface this by it all by academic for me, I don't have any kids and baring tragedy and remarriage I won't be having any. Another disclaimer, I'm an atheist, so disapproval of deity is not a concern for me. That out of the way, I think parents need to be open and honest with kids about sex, they need to work past their own discomfort on the topic (if they have any) to make sure they educate their kids early and at age appropriate levels instead of pawning the topic off on others (teachers, bishops, the kids friends). If you don't talk to your children about the topic other people will, if you want to influence that narrative you've got to add your voice and not just bury your head in the sand and hope they remain ignorant.

I think talking about just premarital sex is problematic because there is a big difference between say your live in girlfriend of 4 years and a guy you pick up at the bar because you want to have some genitalia rubbed together. So when we talk about premarital sex it covers a rather wide range of human behavior. So I think in having this conversation with kids (and with other adults) it is important to identify concerns (such as STDs or pregnancy) and discuss them in terms of relationships. I think people are different enough that the emotional aspects of many types of premarital sexual activity is going to vary not only with individuals but time in life. So someone who may have been okay hooking up in college, now that they are older and more stable and actively seeking a long term relationship won't be okay with hooking up and want their relationships to be quite different and a type of relationship that may have been okay with them previously won't be now. If that means they want to wait for 6 months or until marriage is up to them, they should do what they are comfortable with. You should be helping to set them up to make informed decisions for the rest of their life, yes the earlier conversations will likely be pretty basic and informative rather than thought provoking or trying to set them up with life tools.

Also, focusing on number of sexual partners is missing the point I think. Yes, someone with a very large number of sexual partners likely had short relationships but a 30 year old who had over the course of their life a bunch of 2-3 year relationships was in very different relationships than a 19 year old who has had a dozen sexual partners (I'm intentionally saying different not better here).

Is it psychologically destructive as many Mormon leaders have taught?

I think even if it is completely 100% non-psychologically destructive on it's own account that Mormon leaders have got you covered in making it that way. This is a group that can crush a twelve year old with guilt for having touched themselves in the shower.

P.S. I realize I spent more time discussing the nature of the conversation rather than providing talking points, probably because due to not having children I'm stuck on the "What should conversations look like?" phase of such an exchange rather than the, "What do I actually tell them?" phase.

[wtfluff]

I have a friend who breaks a part of this down pretty simply.

My friend's 'advice' is: "Don't have sex with anyone who can't buy you a house."

While this 'advice' doesn't deal with the myriad issues of consent, age appropriateness, consequences, etc. I still think it's pretty decent advice.

[Arcturus]

The reason adults don't like kids to have sex is that it's easy to make bad decisions about sex. adults make bad decisions about sex all the time. Being a kid pretty much means having poor judgement to start with and to add sex to the mix compounds the likelihood of a bad decision.

Very true. I really appreciate your comment. It's good to remember the cognitive development of a kid and what to expect with their judgment capabilities...

[Arcturus]

I have come to some basic do's and don'ts in my own mind but I don't know how to teach them without some formality or corroboration from somewhere else. Nevertheless, this is how I approached the topic recently with my kids (These are not in order of importance...)

Really like the list slavereeno. Will bookmark this away for when the talks need to happen.

[Arcturus]

Teenagers
If we’re talking about teenagers, talk about consent. Explain it’s an adult thing to do and it has adult consequences that follow, not only possible pregnancy, but being vulnerable in that way as a young person can be emotionally damaging as well— I personally don’t think it’s for teenagers. After they’re 18-20 or off on their own it’s their choice. But they will most likely at least hear about it from friends and such in high school. I think you could tell them that as long as you are in a committed relationship and love the person it’s ok. Just be prepared for the adult things that could result from those actions (maybe talk about protection too after they reach a certain age). I think it’s only psychologically destructive if it’s not used responsibly. It’s kinda in the same camp as alcohol, just be careful and responsible.

Young children
If we’re talking about little kids, then I would still be direct and they don’t think it’s awkward unless you make it awkward. Tell them it’s not appropriate for people to touch them where their swimming suit covers them and if they feel uncomfortable around someone, to tell you the parents. I don’t think they need to know about sex until they hit puberty, but I have heard of little kids like 5-6yo talking about sex like in the very specific technical terms— which they probably still don’t know what they’re actually talking about anyway.

Most people I've talked to similarly say they don't believe sex is for teenagers. And likewise, from experience it seems like the average kid gets some form of introduction to the topic before they're 8 years old. I certainly did, and that was back around 1990.

[Arcturus]

I think talking about just premarital sex is problematic because there is a big difference between say your live in girlfriend of 4 years and a guy you pick up at the bar because you want to have some genitalia rubbed together. So when we talk about premarital sex it covers a rather wide range of human behavior. So I think in having this conversation with kids (and with other adults) it is important to identify concerns (such as STDs or pregnancy) and discuss them in terms of relationships. I think people are different enough that the emotional aspects of many types of premarital sexual activity is going to vary not only with individuals but time in life. So someone who may have been okay hooking up in college, now that they are older and more stable and actively seeking a long term relationship won't be okay with hooking up and want their relationships to be quite different and a type of relationship that may have been okay with them previously won't be now. If that means they want to wait for 6 months or until marriage is up to them, they should do what they are comfortable with. You should be helping to set them up to make informed decisions for the rest of their life, yes the earlier conversations will likely be pretty basic and informative rather than thought provoking or trying to set them up with life tools.

Also, focusing on number of sexual partners is missing the point I think. Yes, someone with a very large number of sexual partners likely had short relationships but a 30 year old who had over the course of their life a bunch of 2-3 year relationships was in very different relationships than a 19 year old who has had a dozen sexual partners (I'm intentionally saying different not better here).

Really appreciate this insight. Thanks Dravin.

[Arcturus]

My friend's 'advice' is: "Don't have sex with anyone who can't buy you a house."

While this 'advice' doesn't deal with the myriad issues of consent, age appropriateness, consequences, etc. I still think it's pretty decent advice.

+1. Pretty good advice condensed to about 10 words. Hard to beat.