There is no such thing as free will

[rockslider]

Sam Harris on Free Will

What say ye?

[dogbite]

I agree, it's an illusion.

[Hagoth]

I wasn't going to reply but for some reason I couldn't stop myself.

[hiding in plain sight]

I wasn't going to reply but for some reason I couldn't stop myself.

I tried to read this quite a while ago and got stuck in the idea of it all.

One one hand, I understand that we are all creatures of evolution and subject to our biology. My mother was super positive and loving. I know she was a good person. I also know that she didn't will herself to be so kind and positive. She was born that way.

I have another friend who is always depressed and views the world cynically. He didn't will himself to see the world that way. He was born that way. It's not his fault that his mind was prewired to give him borderline depression and general anxiety disorder.

But I still believe that we can push against our biological wiring.

There is a book called the happiness hypothesis. It talks about this innate wiring that each of us has. But he also postulates that we can move within the range that we have been born with. We can at least try and make it better, even though my friend will never be like my mother. That doesn't mean my friend can't find ways to push against his wiring for depression. He just can't solve it all the way.

I think I am now rambling. But you asked what I thought and my wiring forced me to respond.

[RubinHighlander]

I like it! Sam's explanation of free will are right in line with where I have come to be in my world view right now. If you want to get to the crux of the problem with free will, God and religion - go to 47:00

For eons God gave us no guidance whatsoever [after the fall of Adam and Eve]. Then he wrote a few uneven books [the scriptures] that were filled with rumors of ancient miracles. And then he holds us responsible for the slightest doubt we have about his existence on the basis of these books. Though he has stacked the deck against us by giving us a faculty of reason and strangely an ability to write much better books than the ones he's supposedly written.

If there is an afterlife where we go to a judgement bar of a God that will condemn us for leaving the LDS/Mormon church (yup, I'm still using those words) then I'm going to make this statement to that God, that such an omnipotent being is not worthy of worship because of the BS situations thrown into my path and the brain he/she/it gave me to reason out what I perceive as truth and the sincere search for it.

[Palerider]

I wasn't going to reply but for some reason I couldn't stop myself.

I tried to read this quite a while ago and got stuck in the idea of it all.

One one hand, I understand that we are all creatures of evolution and subject to our biology. My mother was super positive and loving. I know she was a good person. I also know that she didn't will herself to be so kind and positive. She was born that way.

I have another friend who is always depressed and views the world cynically. He didn't will himself to see the world that way. He was born that way. It's not his fault that his mind was prewired to give him borderline depression and general anxiety disorder.

But I still believe that we can push against our biological wiring.

There is a book called the happiness hypothesis. It talks about this innate wiring that each of us has. But he also postulates that we can move within the range that we have been born with. We can at least try and make it better, even though my friend will never be like my mother. That doesn't mean my friend can't find ways to push against his wiring for depression. He just can't solve it all the way.

I think I am now rambling. But you asked what I thought and my wiring forced me to respond.

I agree.

He mentioned some "facts" that he had postulated, but they were only statements, he gave no concrete evidence, at least in the beginning. I didn't listen to the whole thing. Maybe he supported his statements later in the talk.

Anyway, it would have monumental consequences for the legal system. No one could be held accountable for any wrongdoing. It's as silly as the old Christian fallacy that " The devil made me do it".

[alas]

I am with Victor Frankl on this. Our ability to choose is limited by our circumstances, but there is a portion of freedom that no one can take away. He said that there was little freedom in the concentration camps, but there was still the freedom to decide how to respond.

An example, my father showed no ability to empathize with others. In many ways he was classical psychopath. But, he looked at choices, not the way most of us do, but very logically. If a person breaks the law, he will eventually get caught and end up in jail. His moral code was not about hurting people, but about not getting caught. Most psychopaths are constantly in trouble with the law because they do not have the normal moral code about hurting people. They cannot develop the normal moral code because of some brain glitch. They have no conscience and no ability to feel remorse. But they still have choices they can make.

Or take the example of two kids growing up with abuse. One sees the power of the abuser and decides they want power, they feel the hurt of abuse and decide that power over others will stop them from hurting, and they end up repeating the abusive cycle. Their sibling in the same home sees the power of the abuser and feels the pain of abuse and they decide, I don’t want to be like that and with each episode of pain, their resolve to not be like their abuser gets stronger, even if it means they suffer more pain. They protect siblings by taking more abuse on themselves, just to prove to themselves they are not like the abuser. One chooses to avoid pain no matter the consequences while the other chooses to take on more pain to avoid being an abuser. It is not about how bad the abuse is, but about a choice they make at some point.

We can’t choose what happens to us, we can’t choose our heredity, we can’t choose the circumstances of our life, but we can choose what we do with what we are given.

So, unfettered free will? Full freedom? Doesn’t exist. Limited free will, within our circumstances, within our genetics, within dozens of limits, well, for what it is worth and it isn’t much, but we do have some choices.

[dogbite]

Causal free will as opposed to contra-causal free will are the more common terms.

But I've shared this quote before.

The thoughts of all men arise from darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how can you call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?

[Palerider]

Causal free will as opposed to contra-causal free will are the more common terms.

But I've shared this quote before.

The thoughts of all men arise from darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how can you call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?

I'm not sure I follow this...

Why the assumption that "the thoughts of all men arise from the darkness"? Is there some kind of research showing this? What does that even mean?

I don't understand the "you are the movement of your own soul" concept. 🤨

[dogbite]

This is a literary quote, not science.

Darkness means opacity in this case. We don't know the source of thoughts. They often appear unbidden from our subconscious. Indeed when tasked with moving one hand or the other on a signal, science can read the unconscious decision around .5 to 7 seconds before the consciousness understands the decision and acts. See bereitschaftpotential. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bereitschaftspotential

It seems this extends to our hard decision making as well.

Movement of your soul then is to say that your willful action and choices are justified by the consciousness but not decided by consiousness. This is the core of the illusion of free will. If our volition is invisible to our consciousness, consciousness is along for the ride after the fact. Because of processing lag in our system our consciousness sort of exists in the past, at least it lags the present state a bit. But in everyday life that gap is small enough to not matter. Driving a car or flying ajet, that gap becomes important. 3/4 of a second reaction time to start braking when you see other brake lights suddenly.

Since our decisions and thoughts are outside of conscious control then we are subject to whatever it is that operates before conscious thought. We are slaves to thoughts and choices not of our consciousness.

But we can influence this system. You can train in martial arts or sports or flying a fighter jets to have better subconscious routines and faster repsonses though the extent varies from person to person and the skill involved.

Or moral situations. For the most part, moral resposnes are the same. The subconscious reacts, consciousness justifies. but the more you examine and analyze and participate in your society, you can adapt your instinctive responses. A religious conversion perhaps?

[rockslider]

I agree.

He mentioned some "facts" that he had postulated, but they were only statements, he gave no concrete evidence, at least in the beginning. I didn't listen to the whole thing. Maybe he supported his statements later in the talk.

Anyway, it would have monumental consequences for the legal system. No one could be held accountable for any wrongdoing. It's as silly as the old Christian fallacy that " The devil made me do it".

You need to listen to the whole thing. I assume everyone's initial thoughts on the beginning of this is similar to yours.

Check out Norway's prison stats

Does Prison Actually Make a Difference

This is also good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCGtkDzELAI

[rockslider]

I wasn't going to reply but for some reason I couldn't stop myself.

What a great example! It's like Dennis the Menace trying to NOT push that copier button.

[rockslider]

hiding in plain sight,

I was wondering about this for myself, being a type A, bright red personality ... can a zebra change its stripes, a leopard its spots?

I'm somewhat self aware of my negative tendencies, but change is very hard and falling back so rapid.

[rockslider]

alas's comments remind me of Sam's use of the Grizzly Bear just being a Grizzly Bear.

Society must still protect itself against bears, somehow.

It will be interesting if Norway's 26 year max sentence for any crime works out with that crazed killer that hit them years back.

[Palerider]

I agree.

He mentioned some "facts" that he had postulated, but they were only statements, he gave no concrete evidence, at least in the beginning. I didn't listen to the whole thing. Maybe he supported his statements later in the talk.

Anyway, it would have monumental consequences for the legal system. No one could be held accountable for any wrongdoing. It's as silly as the old Christian fallacy that " The devil made me do it".

You need to listen to the whole thing. I assume everyone's initial thoughts on the beginning of this is similar to yours.

Check out Norway's prison stats

Does Prison Actually Make a Difference

This is also good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCGtkDzELAI

Hmmm....

I admit America's prison system is oriented more towards the punitive rather than rehabilitation. Things could improve greatly.

But if anything the Norway video makes an excellent case for free will. It shows that offenders when properly rehabilitated can decide not to reoffend. Just as many people see the "error of their ways" and make changes in their lives for the better.

Or are we saying that they aren't responsible for deciding to become socially healthy either?

It has to work both ways.

If we aren't responsible for the wrong we do then we aren't responsible for the good either.

So in the case of someone who does badly in severity and then changes to do very well, where does that change come from???

Theoretically from the "no free will" perspective, they had no choice in either case so how do we explain the change?

[blazerb]

We must believe in free will - we have no choice.

Isaac Bashevis Singer

If there is free will, I've got free will. If not, I don't have any choice in what I believe. I may as well believe that I can choose. (That, of course, could just be my programming.)

Honestly, I think I can choose on many things. I also think that evolution has given me some shortcuts in thinking that can be hijacked to take away my ability to choose in specific situations. I believe I am aware of some of those shortcuts, so I hope it's harder to hurt me through them. However, I know it's still very possible.

[dogbite]

It's not that there is no choice at all. But choice is limited to those things that are causal. See https://pathofthebeagle.com/2013/10/06/ ... free-will/

But yes it does change how you view criminal responsibility. So rather than say he chose to do evil one would say what caused that choice set. Can we change the life path of this person to stay out of those choice paths. It's a much stronger rehabilitation path than a punishment path. I think there would still be those whose nature is incompatible with a society and can not be rehabilitated or are too dangerous and would still live in prison.

[profit_seizer]

Jumping in here to add my completely bullsh*t personal opinion that: a) we don't have free will, b) no version of a society can survive without believing in at least a weak form of free will, so it's necessary to act like we do, and c) listening to Sam Harris gives me a headache. Oh and d) the best mormon doctrine is free agency and when the standard verbiage switched to just "agency" everything started getting A LOT worse. But I guess that makes sense since they were never really solid on extending liberty of conscience, any more than they were building that "Zion" society where there were no poor among them (I mean why do that when you can just buy a mall?).

[rockslider]

c) listening to Sam Harris gives me a headache.

What is it about Sam Harris that you dislike?

[rockslider]

But if anything the Norway video makes an excellent case for free will.

It struck me that with ones negative; born with issues, cause/effect and ones established world view of a long time - say 30 years, just might not take an equal amount of positive cause/effect, newly established world view to offset the negative.

Perhaps 5 years in a Norway prison could easily reset one's choices.

In other words, I think you are wrong about the excellent case for free will, as its all about that reset and is actually an excellent case of just the opposite.