Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

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Mormorrisey
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Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by Mormorrisey » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:35 pm

I'm a little surprised that this has not been mentioned by anybody yet, but during John Dehlin's catch-up interview with Hans and Brigitta Mattson (only available on his Facebook page right now) they talked about their experience with the 2nd anointing. Apparently they received the ordinance in the Frankfurt temple in the early 2000s, with Elder Ballard officiating and Rasband in attendance. A couple of interesting points:

First, Brigitta was pretty blunt when she said, "Tom Phillips was correct." Pretty forcefully. To me, not only does this validate Tom, but when you listen to these two sweet souls explain themselves, without any rancor or an axe to grind with the church, it's pretty clear that this is not a made up story. The ordinance exists, it's given to the elite of the elite and that its existence shouldn't be put into any question, even for TBM's. They explained the ordinance in a fair amount of detail, again backing up Tom's story, and for those who haven't read it, here it is:

http://www.mormonthink.com/files/tom-ph ... inting.pdf

Perhaps the reason it hasn't been given more airplay either here or on reddit, is how Hans described how he felt about the experience. Just listening to him, it's pretty clear that Hans is a deeply spiritual man, he just has specific issues with how the church is a corporation, and the history that was hidden from him. He really thought it was a great experience for him and his wife, and that to me simply adds to the fact that they were telling the truth. The one thing he did say, and I'm paraphrasing, is that the 2nd anointing seems to render the atonement unnecessary. Pretty insightful.

I could listen to the two of them all day - in fact, the Mattson's first interview with John was one of my first trips down the rabbit hole. Just the best people.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by IT_Veteran » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:48 pm

I think the lack of discussion, at least for me, is more because it isn't on iTunes yet. I started listening to part one of the two day event on my way to work this morning, but had to just start the video on FB and flip the phone upside down on the passenger seat (so it doesn't look like I'm watching videos while driving) in order to do so. I was waiting for it to hit iTunes but just didn't want to wait any longer.

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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:55 pm

Has it dropped to the MS podcast que yet?

There was a time in the late 1880- 1890's when the 2nd anointings were published in the salt lake newspapers. I have no idea why or when the modern church made this a secret ordinance. It's clearly never been a secret.

What gets me is that they didn't talk about it sooner! I guess this shows how deep the indoctrination goes. probably similar to how some of us don't immediately disclose our temple names out of fear or in some cases respect for the experience. Maybe they needed the time to process their exit and get over the ingrained fear.

So I don't blame them for not coming forward sooner. Just surprised they didn't.

It also makes sense why Tom Phillips didn't get excommunicated.

I'll probably listen to the podcast at some point.

Edited to add a link to read about it. There was actually a Book of Anointings kept that listed everyone who received the 2A in the Nauvoo temple.

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-cont ... N01_12.pdf
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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by MerrieMiss » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:45 pm

I'll probably listen when it's on MS. For a long time, the second anointing was my hot button. I don't really think about it anymore, haven't for a long time. I'm interested to see how I'll feel about it.

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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by moksha » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:24 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:55 pm
I have no idea why or when the modern church made this a secret ordinance. It's clearly never been a secret.
Because it basically represents a "Church within a Church" and the second anointing is something most members cannot attain.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by Mormorrisey » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:51 am

moksha wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:24 pm
Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:55 pm
I have no idea why or when the modern church made this a secret ordinance. It's clearly never been a secret.
Because it basically represents a "Church within a Church" and the second anointing is something most members cannot attain.
What I find incredibly ironic is that the author of the statement, "we are as transparent as we know how to be," aka Elder Ballard, was the officiator at both Tom Phillips and the Mattson's second anointing. And then they wonder just how they have lost the loyalty of so many members when they find out these kinds of things.

And it IS a church within a church. One of the things that struck me about Tom's account is how Harald Hillam told him to keep it a secret, "or else there would be problems with members." A special VIP club for some but not all? Who would have a problem with that? Surely there's no doctrine that salvation comes to young and old, bond and free, yada yada.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by profit_seizer » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:50 am

This is the first I've heard of this ordinance specifically, but it's a very well attested tactic of authoritarian organizing that you want to create a small privileged class of people in order to maintain distributed power (a managerial class—paladins for your cause, if you will). Since the whole goal of Mormonism (and arguably religion as a feature of human society) is to address the unknowable in a way that makes it manageable for humans, specifically to address issues of morality and our relationship to death, it makes tons of sense to create a class of people for whom the struggle is over, a hierarchy within the hierarchy. (A church within a church, as mentioned before.) Consider that, if you got that Second Anointing, there would not likely be a good reason to go around checking if the church were true (hence there only being three defectors that we know of), because if it's NOT, you're just a plebe like everyone else. If it's TRUE, though, man! You're holy as f**k! You already punched your ticket! McConkie was on about "calling and election made sure" so much, precisely because he was so pompous. He knew that by touting this, he could raise his status with the membership (who are often seeking the deep "mysteries"), even among the Brethren. And it worked, btw. Once you make this special category, you get to choose who has power in your organization, without needing that pesky ol' Common Consent. It's exactly how MLMs, Scientology, and most modern governments work. I wonder how many of that raft of fraudulent local authorities (like my folks' ex-bishop who was running a ponzi scheme) have gotten the 2nd anointing.

Now that I think of it, though, it made more sense to run those in the paper like they did in the old days, because then you create a list of members with that heightened authority, and because everyone knows who they are, they can wield it in place of an absentee local legitimate authority. Sad! (yes that was on purpose)
"The history of human thought recalls the swinging of a pendulum which takes centuries to swing. After a long period of slumber comes a moment of awakening." —Peter Kropotkin

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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by alas » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:38 am

In D&C 132, there is that line about how the polygamous husband can commit anything except shedding innocent blood and still he is justified. (someone who still owns a D&C can look up the exact wording) Once I asked my DH about that because it contradicts the atonement and he explained about the 2nd anointing and I am like WTF. That was when I realized that Mormons are REALLY are not Christian. At the very bottom of Mormon doctrine, the tippity top leaders believe that the Church awards exhalation. Christ doesn’t judge us. The church leaders judge us. Then, if the top leaders think we are righteous enough, they award us with this special ordinance that trumps Jesus Christ and the atonement. “We don’t need no Savior. We got the 2nd anointing.” Anyone who believes in the second anointing is NOT Christian, not in any way shape or form. So, if RMN has had his second anointing, and he didn’t denounce it publicly as false doctrine, then he is not Christian.

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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by jfro18 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:08 am

When I was investigating the church a good 20 years ago now, I remember the teacher at the time talking about the second anointing. I didn't know that was the term at the time, but he talked about how if you are faithful and do everything you're supposed to, then you will get the opportunity to go to the temple and see Christ face to face.

I remember him bawling as he talked about the feeling of meeting Christ, and how he testified that it was real and that he hoped one day to receive it.

And now all these years later I find out what an absolute lie it is.

So I don't know if it just a myth that the church allows to percolate because it keeps people striving to attain it or what, but the whole idea of *what* the second anointing is makes no sense, and that it overrides the atonement goes against everything we are taught about why Christ had to die for us.

None of it makes sense, which is why they don't want anyone talking about it in a real way.

But man... thinking of that day 20 years ago is just so cringeworthy now. I remember thinking it had to be real the way he spoke of it, and now as I've learned so much else I just think about myself 20 years ago and I can not believe that was so naive.

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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by Rob4Hope » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:23 am

I had no idea Hans and Brigitta had the 2nd Anointing done.

According to Truman Madsen, them coming out in opposition to the church make them both sons & daughters of perdition. They are OUT!

I read a thesis like 20 years ago from a BYU grad seeking publication about why the church had to go with Brigham. The main reason was because Brigham was inside this inner circle--the others who pitched for leadership didn't have the blessing. Also, section 132 grants some SERIOUS indulgences to those who have the blessing. As long as they don't shed 'innocent blood', they are IN. But they also got to choose what 'innocent blood' meant.

What a blank check for abuse.

Anyway, what amazes me is if Hans, Brigitta and Tom Phillips are children of perdition,...how then is it possible they are so kind, thoughtful, and gentle people? Didn't Jesus say something about bitter water doesn't come from a good fountain and all that? A church that believes people like these 3 are worse than Adolf Hitler (who hasn't committed the unpardonable sin like they did) has its head up its a$$.

Its utter contradictions like this that keep me out of the church. I can't associate with a group that has such absurdities, and claims they came from God.

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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by Hagoth » Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:01 pm

profit_seizer wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:50 am
This is the first I've heard of this ordinance specifically...
If you listen carefully there is a hint about it in the temple endowment about how you are currently anointed "only to become such," but the day may come when you will be called up and anointed with the whole enchilada.

I don't know what you can actively do to put yourself on the right track for the golden ticket these days. There was a time when the privilege could be bought for the price of your teenage daughter.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by moksha » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:12 pm

I suppose a restoration of all things would include the formation of a Sacred Order of Unlimited Plenary Indulgences. The important thing would be to watch out for any hotheads trying to nail their 95 theses condemning such indulgences to the Temple door.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by profit_seizer » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:57 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:01 pm
If you listen carefully there is a hint about it in the temple endowment about how you are currently anointed "only to become such," but the day may come when you will be called up and anointed with the whole enchilada.
I always thought that was supposed to happen in the afterlife, but I guess it makes sense that it would be a living temple ordinance since everything that is supposed to happen is supposed to happen in the temple.
"The history of human thought recalls the swinging of a pendulum which takes centuries to swing. After a long period of slumber comes a moment of awakening." —Peter Kropotkin

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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by Red Ryder » Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:25 pm

profit_seizer wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:57 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:01 pm
If you listen carefully there is a hint about it in the temple endowment about how you are currently anointed "only to become such," but the day may come when you will be called up and anointed with the whole enchilada.
I always thought that was supposed to happen in the afterlife, but I guess it makes sense that it would be a living temple ordinance since everything that is supposed to happen is supposed to happen in the temple.
You HAVE to go listen to the Tom Phillips interview with JD where he tells his experience. It's super long but worth it.

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Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by sunstoned » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:08 pm

I am of the opinion that the reason Joseph Bishop has not be disciplined is because he has had the second anointing. Apparently you can rape in the basement of the MTC, but as long as you shed no innocent blood, you are good to go.

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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by profit_seizer » Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:34 pm


Red Ryder wrote:
You HAVE to go listen to the Tom Phillips interview with JD where he tells his experience. It's super long but worth it.

Return and Report!
Just downloaded the... Five episodes?! I'll let you know how it goes.
"The history of human thought recalls the swinging of a pendulum which takes centuries to swing. After a long period of slumber comes a moment of awakening." —Peter Kropotkin

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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by Rob4Hope » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:02 am

sunstoned wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:08 pm
I am of the opinion that the reason Joseph Bishop has not be disciplined is because he has had the second anointing. Apparently you can rape in the basement of the MTC, but as long as you shed no innocent blood, you are good to go.
This may be more accurate than you know. There really is a blank check in D&C 132 about those who get the ordinance--its a blank check to be forgiven for everything except shedding innocent blood; and according to Paul, no one is innocent! (with perhaps the exception of little children).

Can you believe that!?

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" has come full circle for LDS hierarchy!

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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by profit_seizer » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:03 am

Even (most of) the satanists know that's not good enough by itself!
"The history of human thought recalls the swinging of a pendulum which takes centuries to swing. After a long period of slumber comes a moment of awakening." —Peter Kropotkin

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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by deacon blues » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:44 pm

profit_seizer wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:57 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:01 pm
If you listen carefully there is a hint about it in the temple endowment about how you are currently anointed "only to become such," but the day may come when you will be called up and anointed with the whole enchilada.
I always thought that was supposed to happen in the afterlife, but I guess it makes sense that it would be a living temple ordinance since everything that is supposed to happen is supposed to happen in the temple.
This makes me wonder: don't we have knowledge of 2nd annointings done in the Nauvoo temple? Do we have records of who received them? I'm guessing Joseph Smith died before he received them but it would be interesting to know if he did, or if it is recorded. By the way-- Kudos to 'profit-seizer' for a great..... uh, picture thingy.
God is Love. God is Truth

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Random
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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by Random » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:05 pm

Does anyone know when the Mattsons' interview will be on Mormon Stories?
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

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