Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

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jfro18
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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by jfro18 » Mon May 25, 2020 8:30 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 8:21 pm
jfro18 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 6:01 pm
. I was floored by it -- and in a good way... he really made it sound like the most incredible thing ever and I bought into it hook, line, and sinker.
Too bad you weren't well connected to the right families. It would be a lot less stressful and more motivating to have your calling and election made sure. You would probably find it much easier to be a happy believer.
Looking back on it, that saddest part of all was that he was explaining it (and I don't believe he called it the second anointing), and in a nutshell he described it like this:

"And if you live a good and righteous life, the leaders of the church will give you the opportunity to go to the temple and get to see the face of Jesus Christ. That is the power of the restored priesthood that we can know for sure that this is the true church and if we live a life that is worthy, we will get that chance."

Yet this dude as far as I know was not at all connected - he has NO chance of ever getting a second anointing even if he's perfect. And even if he did... he's not going to see Jesus.

When I listened to the Tom P Mormon Stories podcast two years ago I remember everything connected like the end of the Sixth Sense between that SS lesson and the podcast... it was such an impactful podcast to begin with, and then combined with that experience for me... it made me feel stupid, deceived, naive, and everything in-between.

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Hagoth
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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by Hagoth » Tue May 26, 2020 6:49 am

Tom's story rang true in many ways for me. Maybe the date was wrong, maybe they used pseudonyms, I don't know. But there is no question that Phillips had the right kind of position and connections (as borne out by his correspondences with Jeffry Holland) and that he suffered very real consequences in his personal life for talking about it. BUT he never suffered the obvious consequence; he was never disciplined by the church. Tom Phillips was public enemy number one for a while but for some reason they couldn't/wouldn't take any institutional action against him, and that was during a period of heretic purging of people like John Dehlin, Simon Southerton, Sam Young, etc. I mean, all Southerton did was publish a book that revealed uncomfortable scientific facts, and all Young did was ask church leaders to help protect children from sexual predation.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by Just This Guy » Tue May 26, 2020 9:15 am

emrysfellows wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 5:02 am
I would like to say again at this point that Brother Tom Phillips and his wife were not among the couples that day. So it is not true his tale about the second anointing.

For argument sake, let's cross examine the witness.

How to you know today (5-25-2020) that this is the case of what happened? The date in question was May 19, 2002 (assuming the date published is accurate). 18 years ago. How do you know he was not there all time time later. Did you know Tom Phillips? Would you have been able to identify him by sight?

IIRC, 2002 was back before they started scanning recommends. You go to the temple, the guy at the desk looks at your card and lets you in. They didn't record the names or ID numbers for people who were there. So looking at the records of who checked in at the recommend desk is not helpful. He could have come before your shift or after your sift, or while you were away from the desk.

Since this ceremony is qusi-secret, how many sessions did they hold? You know of one, but how about before or after that session? How do you remember everyone in the room? How do we trust you on that? How do we know your memory of this event is completely accurate and all persons are accounted for?

The witness has come out over ten years since Phillips first went public with his story. Why the delay?

I have to take both sides of the story with a grain of salt. To borrow from Moon Landing conspiracy nonsense. The country with the most to gain and least to loose by proving the landing was a hoax was the USSR. They have never provided any proof that the Apollo moon landings were faked despite having many chances to do so. Tom Phillips has received no official refutation from the church and others have at least corroborated how the ceremony works. The same here. The entity with the most to gain and least to loose in proving Tom Phillips wrong is LDSInc. They are silent on the matter which indicates that either that Mr. Phillips is telling the truth or that there is something there they are trying to hide.

I would welcome further light and knowledge on how we can learn the truth of this situation.
Last edited by Just This Guy on Tue May 26, 2020 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Not Buying It
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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by Not Buying It » Tue May 26, 2020 10:08 am

Of course Hans "really thought it was a great experience for him and his wife" - it was a super rare, unusual bonus given only to the elite. It would give anyone the warm fuzzies. There are many things that piss me off about the Church, but one of the biggest is that the Church is not equitable in its distribution of its goodies. There are tons of people who put just as much time and work into the Church as the Mattsons who will never get that super special blessing of the 2nd Anointing. If you don't have a high calling, or benefit from the nepotism and cronyism that is rampant in the Church, you can work as hard as you can and never get a chance for something like this.

There is nothing equitable in the manner with which the Church bestows its favors.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Yobispo
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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by Yobispo » Tue May 26, 2020 10:29 am

18 year old event. Brand new user with a single (albeit repeated) post who accidentally confirms facts that Tom shouldn't have known. I'm Not Buying It, even though that's not my handle. :)

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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue May 26, 2020 11:28 am

Yobispo wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 10:29 am
18 year old event. Brand new user with a single (albeit repeated) post who accidentally confirms facts that Tom shouldn't have known. I'm Not Buying It, even though that's not my handle. :)
Are you suggesting, Yobispo, that our new user friend's initials are SCMC?

The plot thickens.

So, emrysfellows, what say you? I'd also love to hear your responses to Just This Guy's queries.
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jfro18
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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by jfro18 » Tue May 26, 2020 11:38 am

Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 11:28 am
Yobispo wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 10:29 am
18 year old event. Brand new user with a single (albeit repeated) post who accidentally confirms facts that Tom shouldn't have known. I'm Not Buying It, even though that's not my handle. :)
Are you suggesting, Yobispo, that our new user friend's initials are SCMC?

The plot thickens.

So, emrysfellows, what say you? I'd also love to hear your responses to Just This Guy's queries.
If this guy is SCMC, can they please shoot me a PM. I have a few things I'd like to discuss and will give them my full personal info so they can follow up with me. :lol:

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Hagoth
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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by Hagoth » Tue May 26, 2020 4:23 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 9:15 am
How to you know today (5-25-2020) that this is the case of what happened? The date in question was May 19, 2002 (assuming the date published is accurate). 18 years ago. How do you know he was not there all time time later. Did you know Tom Phillips? Would you have been able to identify him by sight?
And what direct bearing does this have on the Mattsons? Because you are calling Phillips a liar, that proves that two other people totally unrelated are also liars?
Not Buying It wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 10:08 am
If you don't have a high calling, or benefit from the nepotism and cronyism that is rampant in the Church, you can work as hard as you can and never get a chance for something like this.
Anybody want to hazard a guess about what percentage of the Second-Anointed just happen to be blood relatives of General Authorities?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Yobispo
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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by Yobispo » Tue May 26, 2020 4:44 pm

For hagoth -
I'm setting the over/under at 65% related to GAs.

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moksha
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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by moksha » Tue May 26, 2020 7:51 pm

The guy claiming to be the janitor for the moon rocket says Neil Armstrong's suit was empty, eh?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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2bizE
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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by 2bizE » Tue May 26, 2020 10:49 pm

My understanding is the 2nd anointing was commonplace until around the 1930s where it abruptly stopped. It then only became available bro the elite. The names of those receiving the ordinance were printed in the newspaper.
~2bizE

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Hagoth
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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by Hagoth » Wed May 27, 2020 6:01 am

2bizE wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 10:49 pm
The names of those receiving the ordinance were printed in the newspaper.
An act of transparency that would likely merit excommunication now.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."


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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by græy » Wed May 27, 2020 9:48 am

jfro18 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 6:01 pm
Is there a good resource that goes over the history of the second anointing? I believe it was common with polygamy early on and then got more and more scarce as time went on?
IIRC Lindsay Hansen Park had a full (possibly multi-part) YoP episode on the 2nd annointing or "Fullness of the Priesthood". Somewhere around episode 100 maybe? I'll see if I can find it.

edit: Found it! Lots of good resources here. https://www.yearofpolygamy.com/uncatego ... made-sure/
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Hagoth
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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by Hagoth » Wed May 27, 2020 1:47 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:37 am
http://www.ldsendowment.org/
Only the first portion of the second anointing--the anointing itself--can be performed vicariously for the dead.
'

That's a new one to me. Again, I wonder what percentage of Second-anointed dead folks are in the bloodline of GAs. I would love for my parents to have this. They were as worthy and faithful as anyone. Where do I sign up?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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blazerb
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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by blazerb » Wed May 27, 2020 4:31 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 1:47 pm
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:37 am
http://www.ldsendowment.org/
Only the first portion of the second anointing--the anointing itself--can be performed vicariously for the dead.
'

That's a new one to me. Again, I wonder what percentage of Second-anointed dead folks are in the bloodline of GAs. I would love for my parents to have this. They were as worthy and faithful as anyone. Where do I sign up?
What would be the point of a second anointing for the dead? (I know they occurred/occur.) The couple has already had their time of probation. Either they were righteous and don't need it, or they were not. If they were not righteous, does this get them a free pass?

The second anointing is unfair anyway. The second anointing for the dead seems insane.

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Hagoth
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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by Hagoth » Wed May 27, 2020 7:03 pm

blazerb wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 4:31 pm
What would be the point of a second anointing for the dead? (I know they occurred/occur.) The couple has already had their time of probation. Either they were righteous and don't need it, or they were not. If they were not righteous, does this get them a free pass?

The second anointing is unfair anyway. The second anointing for the dead seems insane.
I assume the reason would be that it would erase any demerits from your mortal probation and buy you a direct ticket to the highest level of the CK, since that's basically what it does for the living.

For men it probably bumps them all the way up to the unlimited harem category. When you think about it, the 2nd anointing is really designed as a very exclusive men's club for a lucky few. Women are pronounced clean in the regular endowment, men only that they may become so unless they are called up and anointed (if I'm remembering it correctly) to become kings and priests. So, it's much easier for women to get into Special Heaven but it's not nearly as special for them as for the men who make the grade. The 2nd anointing guarantees that only a small percentage of men will be admitted to the god club. That means those few men will have access to all of those women who will now need to be matched to properly vetted and exalted men, because their guy probably didn't cut it at the Last Judgement. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the intention of the Second Anointing is that the ONLY way a man can get to the top-god level is as a member of the super-anointing club. Sure, you can get to one of the lower levels of the CK by living a near-perfect life, but that special 3rd tier is reserved exclusively for the very-well-connected brethren who get invited to the party.

The only real advantage for a woman, in that case, would be that she would get to keep her earthly husband in the eternities, although she will take a distant second place to him along with his many other wives. Maybe she will win the honor of being kept a secret from billions of her children out of respect for her, because she is so delicate that it would be better that they don't know her than that some of them might use her name in vain.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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blazerb
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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by blazerb » Wed May 27, 2020 7:45 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:03 pm
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the intention of the Second Anointing is that the ONLY way a man can get to the top-god level is as a member of the super-anointing club. Sure, you can get to one of the lower levels of the CK by living a near-perfect life, but that special 3rd tier is reserved exclusively for the very-well-connected brethren who get invited to the party.
I think you're right, and it ticks me off that the "Brethren" treat people this way.

A God who reserves blessings only for the well-connected by birth or occupation does not deserve my worship.

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alas
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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by alas » Wed May 27, 2020 8:13 pm

It has occurred to me several times that the real problem with giving women the priesthood on earth, with recognizing gay marriage, doing away with polygamy, and a few other of the church’s Hang ups is that they would have to give up the second anointing if they actually changed the doctrine. The very top leaders would have to give up their supper special status if (a) women were given the priesthood of God, instead of *them.* (b) two men/demigods married each other. Who would be the god and who his priest? (c) they really gave up the idea of eternal harems. You gotta have more than one priest under your command, otherwise how are you superior to the priest(ess) who is under you?

This is why they were so slow to make the temple ceremony sorta closer to almost equal. And why they can never make it truly equal. When you consider that the man becomes a god, and his wife becomes his priestess, it makes all their talk about how men and women are equal totally false. Men and women don’t both receive equal blessings of the priesthood. Not n any way shape or form. Yes, women are made clean, and exalted. But they are never going to be gods in their own right. They will be part of a harem of priestesses under a god. All the talk about how women are equal and receive all the blessings of the priesthood become lies.





Unless you qualify those lies by saying women get all the blessings of the priesthood they as women are *eligible* for. Yup, women have the priesthood....all the priesthood they are eligible for.

Men get to be gods and women get to be eternally pregnant. Whoopy. How to I avoid qualifying for this great cursing. I can think of no greater he’ll than being pregnant and I would rather be in hell for eternity than pregnant for eternity. I spent three eternities all ready pregnant....well it feels like eternity. So, women turn out to be nothing but breeding stock after all.

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Exiled
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Re: Hans and Brigitta Mattson, 2nd and 3rd Witnesses for the 2nd Anointing

Post by Exiled » Thu May 28, 2020 9:20 am

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:37 am
http://www.ldsendowment.org/

Has a transcript of one of the early 2a's.
Having the woman wash the man's feet is so LDS. Also, I wonder if one of the 2nd anointed ever cursed someone and it worked? It reminds me of an Aqua Teen Hunger Force episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtTBLMqAPo0

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