"I already knew it was true"

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Hagoth
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"I already knew it was true"

Post by Hagoth » Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:09 pm

I know I have posted about this before but I'm seeing this pattern more and more in young people in the church, specifically leaving and returning missionaries in their farewell and homecoming talks. I heard it again today.

What I'm talking about is when a young person says, "I felt like if I was going to be teaching people that the Book of Mormon is true I needed to know for myself." They then go on to tell you about how they read the whole book and then, after reaching Moroni's Promise, prayed sincerely for a testimony of it, then waited while nothing happened, then prayed some more, and waited some more while nothing continued to happen. Then, shaken by the experience and trying to figure out what they did wrong they suddenly come to the joyous realization of realization of, "Hey, the reason I didn't receive a witness because I already knew it was true." Whew.

This strikes such a chord with me because it was exactly my experience as a young missionary who was feeling guilty for teaching people that God would give them the answer he had never actually, for reasons that were beyond me, extended to me.

This is the third time in the past year or so that a leaving or returning missionary in my ward has told this story.

Have any of you noticed this?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: "I already knew it was true"

Post by moksha » Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:25 pm

Maybe that is a new narrative being woven at the MTC. God does not need to give the answer, because you had already received it along the way. No need for Dorothy to seek answers from Glinda or the Wizard when the answer was that there is no place like home all along.

So let them raise their CTR rings to the square (the analog of clicking the Ruby Slippers) and declare, "I already knew it was oh so true".
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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jfro18
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Re: "I already knew it was true"

Post by jfro18 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:31 pm

Dorothy didn't actually need the ruby slippers, she had the power to go home all along...

Reuben
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Re: "I already knew it was true"

Post by Reuben » Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:57 pm

moksha wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:25 pm
Maybe that is a new narrative being woven at the MTC. God does not need to give the answer, because you had already received it along the way. No need for Dorothy to seek answers from Glinda or the Wizard when the answer was that there is no place like home all along.
Wouldn't that be strange if Mormonism moved toward scriptural self-attestation. "It's true because I found God in it" rather than "It's true because God told me so."
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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DPRoberts
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Re: "I already knew it was true"

Post by DPRoberts » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:50 pm

Yes, I have noticed. "You always knew" seems to be the fallback for the born and raised folks when they don't get the manifestation that they have been oversold, but still want to stay in the club as testimony toting member.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest. -anon
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. -Max Born

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Emower
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Re: "I already knew it was true"

Post by Emower » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:18 pm

:|
Reuben wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:57 pm
moksha wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:25 pm
Maybe that is a new narrative being woven at the MTC. God does not need to give the answer, because you had already received it along the way. No need for Dorothy to seek answers from Glinda or the Wizard when the answer was that there is no place like home all along.
Wouldn't that be strange if Mormonism moved toward scriptural self-attestation. "It's true because I found God in it" rather than "It's true because God told me so."
I think there is so much crap being aerosolized by fan blades right now this is a natural response and it will become the official response at some point.

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Hagoth
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Re: "I already knew it was true"

Post by Hagoth » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:03 am

I see the eventuality of two approaches: 1) God knew you would be born into His church, so He sent you to earth with your testimony already embedded, and/or 2) remember those happy feelings you felt as a Sunbeam in sharing time? See, you already have a testimony of the church and there fore of the restoration, the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith's polygamy, the seer stone... the whole enchilada. To deny that would be denying the Holy Ghost, with all of the penalties pursuant to that course of action.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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deacon blues
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Re: "I already knew it was true"

Post by deacon blues » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:01 am

I had a spiritual experience on my mission that turned into a deja vu experience. When we baptized a family of four I had a peculiar exhilarating, moist, sweaty, tired feeling. I remember thinking 1st, "Is this the Spirit telling me the Church is true." 2nd, "This reminds me of a feeling I had long ago, in fact it seems identical." 3rd, "Now I remember, This is how I felt when I completed my mile swim boy scout requirement at Green Canyon Hot Springs when I was around 12 years old.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: "I already knew it was true"

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:34 am

"You always knew" is a smart approach because it feeds on the naturally occurring conditioning we receive in primary and other church meetings. Remembering prior spiritual experiences can cause them to reoccur in some cases as the brain's reward center triggers again on the memory.

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Palerider
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Re: "I already knew it was true"

Post by Palerider » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:59 am

deacon blues wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:01 am
I had a spiritual experience on my mission that turned into a deja vu experience. When we baptized a family of four I had a peculiar exhilarating, moist, sweaty, tired feeling. I remember thinking 1st, "Is this the Spirit telling me the Church is true." 2nd, "This reminds me of a feeling I had long ago, in fact it seems identical." 3rd, "Now I remember, This is how I felt when I completed my mile swim boy scout requirement at Green Canyon Hot Springs when I was around 12 years old.

Green Canyon hot springs! How long it's been since I was there....

Almost 50 years.

I'd read portions of the BofM before my mission but finally read it cover to cover while in the field.

When I was done I had the distinct feeling come to me that it was not scripture. Very distinct. Then I read the D&C and had the feeling that both books were from the same source.
Because my testimony of the Savior had come from reading the New Testament WHILE I WAS A MORMON, I decided to shelve my doubts and continued my mission in good faith to what I had committed to do. I had no hard evidence at the time that the whole thing was bogus.

It took another 35 years for me to slowly figure out that there is a distinction between a testimony of the Savior and a testimony of the LDS church.

And I think this is where members come to a false conclusion. Just because we recognize some of the good things in the church or have a testimony of Christ and his atonement while being in the Mormon church, DOESN'T MAKE THE WHOLE THING TRUE.

The church can have some truth and still be full of false teachings. The Mormon church teaches this principle about other churches ALL THE TIME but they think it's impossible that it might actually apply to them!

So they have to resort to these ridiculous mind games and mental tap dances to get their kids to go on missions.

It makes leadership look desperate and absurd. (Which they are.)
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Hagoth
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Re: "I already knew it was true"

Post by Hagoth » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:38 pm

Another approach that I'm hearing lately showed up in Elder Cook's face-to-face when Kate Holbrook was asked to speak about an event in history that strengthens her testimony. Instead she punted and offered the Holy Ghost as her faith-promoting "event." But she used the opportunity to tell us that the Holy Ghost is not a "vending machine" that will just give us the answers on the spot (in contradiction to Moroni 10:4). Instead, whenever we have a good feeling, that's the Holy Ghost telling you it's all true. In other words, if you don't get an answer, your answer is to wait and at some time down the road God will give you the answer in his own due time.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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wtfluff
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Re: "I already knew it was true"

Post by wtfluff » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:55 pm

I don't know if this is new. I remember using this sort of epistemology during my believing tenure, so it's been around for at least 30 or 40 years.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: "I already knew it was true"

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:08 pm

wtfluff wrote:I don't know if this is new. I remember using this sort of epistemology during my believing tenure, so it's been around for at least 30 or 40 years.
True, I remember this from my mission/youth. IIRC, they talked about how because we had the gift of the holy spook from age 8, we were so used to feeling the spirit all the time that manifestations and burning bosom experiences may not happen for everyone as expected.

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GoodBoy
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Re: "I already knew it was true"

Post by GoodBoy » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:28 pm

They are anxious that their entire lives are going to fall apart because they are not receiving an answer, and then when their minds grasp onto this idea, "You already knew it was true" they feel a huge sense of relief because this "testimony" is required for them to have any hope of getting married, having any status in their community, and not burning in hell. They use this because they subconsciously know that they need it for their lives to work out for them.
Always been the good kid, but I wanted to know more, and to find and test truth.

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profit_seizer
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Re: "I already knew it was true"

Post by profit_seizer » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:16 pm

Yep, this was exactly my experience. Spending all that time looking for a clear answer (here I was in freshman year of BYU, believing I had kinda already had my witness, but doing this as part of Todd Parker's BoM class, and a little worried about going on a mission). Living my whole life trying to determine which of my thoughts were The Spirit (basically giving myself mental illnesses on purpose?). I sat down at the beginning of class one morning and had the extremely stray thought "You already know it's true"... I was on cloud nine the rest of the day, on that sheer spiritual high (or rather the rush of relief that I could latch onto that half-second experience to prevent my life from getting flushed down the toilet). Realizing that all of my "spiritual" experiences were just stray thoughts that were produced by my anxieties and the ensuing relief from believing that either a) I was saved from social ostracization from the community of my birth or b) better yet, I was going to be some kinda Extra Special Cool Dude in The Kingdom of God. A powerful drug.
"The history of human thought recalls the swinging of a pendulum which takes centuries to swing. After a long period of slumber comes a moment of awakening." —Peter Kropotkin

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Hagoth
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Re:

Post by Hagoth » Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:13 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:08 pm
wtfluff wrote:I don't know if this is new. I remember using this sort of epistemology during my believing tenure, so it's been around for at least 30 or 40 years.
True, I remember this from my mission/youth. IIRC, they talked about how because we had the gift of the holy spook from age 8, we were so used to feeling the spirit all the time that manifestations and burning bosom experiences may not happen for everyone as expected.
I agree that the general concept has been around for a long time, but I feel like I'm sensing a shift shift toward teaching that you should not even expect a direct answer to a specific question, as exhibited in the "Holy Ghost is not a vending machine" comment. I see it as something like how you should look down your nose at anyone who would tempt God in expecting anything like revelation or healing from modern prophets. It's the "do you have the testimony to not be healed" mentality, but expanded beyond church leaders to include the Holy Ghost. Just be patient and look for any feeling that might come along that you can cling to as your answer for some unanswered prayer from your past - any good feeling will do, just plug it in the hole that you need filled. That actually gives more power to leaders because the implicit answer is just to trust and follow them until the Holy Ghost gets around to confirming that they're right, maybe next year, maybe on your deathbed.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Corsair
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Re: Re:

Post by Corsair » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:49 am

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:13 pm
I agree that the general concept has been around for a long time, but I feel like I'm sensing a shift shift toward teaching that you should not even expect a direct answer to a specific question, as exhibited in the "Holy Ghost is not a vending machine" comment. I see it as something like how you should look down your nose at anyone who would tempt God in expecting anything like revelation or healing from modern prophets. It's the "do you have the testimony to not be healed" mentality, but expanded beyond church leaders to include the Holy Ghost. Just be patient and look for any feeling that might come along that you can cling to as your answer for some unanswered prayer from your past - any good feeling will do, just plug it in the hole that you need filled. That actually gives more power to leaders because the implicit answer is just to trust and follow them until the Holy Ghost gets around to confirming that they're right, maybe next year, maybe on your deathbed.
I'm not sure that the correlation committee and LDS leaders realize what a problematic claim this becomes by walking the logic just a few steps further. My atheist friends would entirely agree that the "Holy Ghost is not a vending machine" and how they have always had "faith to not be healed". The good feelings that come from praying about truth are too easily applied to any charismatic movement including Catholicism, Islam, political parties, and various ecomonic systems.

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wtfluff
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Re: Re:

Post by wtfluff » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:54 am

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:13 pm
I agree that the general concept has been around for a long time, but I feel like I'm sensing a shift shift toward teaching that you should not even expect a direct answer to a specific question, as exhibited in the "Holy Ghost is not a vending machine" comment.
You could be right. I mean, it is easier to just convince people that they "already know" in place of getting a ghost to answer prayers. There's no such thing as ghosts, ya know? :D
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

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deacon blues
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Re: "I already knew it was true"

Post by deacon blues » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:57 am

Palerider wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:59 am
deacon blues wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:01 am
I had a spiritual experience on my mission that turned into a deja vu experience. When we baptized a family of four I had a peculiar exhilarating, moist, sweaty, tired feeling. I remember thinking 1st, "Is this the Spirit telling me the Church is true." 2nd, "This reminds me of a feeling I had long ago, in fact it seems identical." 3rd, "Now I remember, This is how I felt when I completed my mile swim boy scout requirement at Green Canyon Hot Springs when I was around 12 years old.

Green Canyon hot springs! How long it's been since I was there....

Almost 50 years.

I'd read portions of the BofM before my mission but finally read it cover to cover while in the field.

When I was done I had the distinct feeling come to me that it was not scripture. Very distinct. Then I read the D&C and had the feeling that both books were from the same source.
Because my testimony of the Savior had come from reading the New Testament WHILE I WAS A MORMON, I decided to shelve my doubts and continued my mission in good faith to what I had committed to do. I had no hard evidence at the time that the whole thing was bogus.

It took another 35 years for me to slowly figure out that there is a distinction between a testimony of the Savior and a testimony of the LDS church.

And I think this is where members come to a false conclusion. Just because we recognize some of the good things in the church or have a testimony of Christ and his atonement while being in the Mormon church, DOESN'T MAKE THE WHOLE THING TRUE.

The church can have some truth and still be full of false teachings. The Mormon church teaches this principle about other churches ALL THE TIME but they think it's impossible that it might actually apply to them!

So they have to resort to these ridiculous mind games and mental tap dances to get their kids to go on missions.

It makes leadership look desperate and absurd. (Which they are.)
Green Canyon. Yeah I go back about once a year. It's beautiful in the fall. I'm glad I read the New Testament (well at least the gospels, King James language Paul was tough to hack) before I read the BOM. I recall reading the BOM as a teenager and thinking this sounds/feel made up too. But I loved (and love) the gospels. I'm just a little more skeptical that it is %100 historicaI. went on my mission because Pres. Eyring lived in our ward, and though I didn't know him well, I figured anybody as smart and sincere and humble as he was had to be right about the gospel. :roll:
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Palerider
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Re: "I already knew it was true"

Post by Palerider » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:05 am

deacon blues wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:57 am
Pres. Eyring lived in our ward, and though I didn't know him well, I figured anybody as smart and sincere and humble as he was had to be right about the gospel. :roll:
This is a real stickler for members. How is it possible that these humble, fatherly, sincere elderly gentlemen could be mistaken or possibly even be shading the truth?

It's easy to love someone you only see for an hour on TV twice a year where they're on their best behavior.

And that's the way they prefer it.

They're not really interested at all in sitting down with an informed, questioning member who can see through a "non-answer" or some rhetorical spin. That's the last thing they want to be confronted with. It ruins their day. ;)
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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