The Test of Faith- are all faiths created equal?

[deacon blues]

What made Josiah Stowell, and other money diggers believe in Joseph Smith's ability to see buried treasure with a rock in a hat? We typically call it Faith. Somehow, Joseph convinced them (and/or they convinced themselves) that if they believed, or believed harder, or just kept on believing no matter what, the power of the seer stone would work. (It's interesting that in the 1826 trial Josiah Stowell testified he knew Joseph could see treasure under the ground.)

Is this the same kind of faith that made Steve Jobs keep working after he was fired by Apple Computers, or caused Abraham Lincoln to keep running for public office, or caused Thomas Edison to keep trying to invent the light bulb? Are all faiths equal? Are they discernible only after they later succeed or fail?

[RubinHighlander]

This is a very interesting question Deacon!

Just yesterday I was agonizing over all the flat earther comments on a NASA image post on Instagram and one of the accounts said "I know the Earth is Flat!" But I think from my own experience working on projects, like my old cars, that faith to keep trying might be a bit different than making an absolute statement like "I know." As tempting as it is to just take it to a shop and have them deal with it, sometimes I keep at it for days, hammering, grinding and eventually I've removed the broken rust bolts and have the part replaced.

You would have to talk to Edison and ask him if he knew he would eventually find the right material and combination that would work. However, I think most scientists and inventors are more like to say they know they may fail and never find a solution. I say this because they believe in probability and accept they don't know everything. A religious person can simply make those statements based on emotion with zero facts to back it up. A scientist or inventor keeps working with different variables, keeps learning and trying different things to try and prove what they think might be possible. That's the kind of faith in the probability of success, not blind and purely emotional. I see this in physics and mathematics or even chemistry, based on know facts, variables and behaviors, having some predictability in the possible but not having a way to prove it yet with current technology, like dark matter.

My opinion is that theses faiths are not equal. Joseph never found any treasure, so it was blind emotional faith to believe he had that ability. Someone with a metal detector can show they found something in one place, so you could have faith they could find more things in another place, but it's no guarantee. Now with the added science and knowledge of geology, one could increase the chances of success. If Joe had tried thousands of times, maybe he'd eventually get lucky, probability says so. Unfortunately for us, he didn't stick to treasure hunting, he moved on to create a religion.

[Palerider]

I think there's a lot of background that exists but that we aren't aware of regarding Joseph.

We know that he was actively cultivating a reputation as a peeper. It was a family moneymaker. His father was involved. I remember reading that a farmer/neighbor had reluctantly paid him to find a missing tool and that he highly suspected that Joseph had hidden it in the first place. He just couldn't prove it.

I think this is the way Joseph created a reputation for being clairvoyant.

One of the stories of his peeping for a group of diggers mentions finding a perfect feather about 5-6 feet underground where they were digging for buried Indian treasure. A sure sign they were on the right track.

I can't imagine how that feather got there. (was dropped there?)

I think by the time Joseph was working for Josiah, his reputation was well established and he probably had a few subtle tricks he worked on him to seal the deal.

The superstitious Josiah was convinced, no doubt.

Is "faith" involved?

I'd have to think about that.

[wtfluff]

Is this the same kind of faith that made Steve Jobs keep working after he was fired by Apple Computers, or caused Abraham Lincoln to keep running for public office, or caused Thomas Edison to keep trying to invent the light bulb? Are all faiths equal? Are they discernible only after they later succeed or fail?

No. Blind religious faith is not the same as the "faith" that Steve Jobs, Abraham Lincoln, or Thomas Edison had.

When it comes to human accomplishment, there is plenty of evidence in the real world that humans can be successful if they work hard, and are willing to fail over and over until they eventually succeed.

With faith in deeply held beliefs such as religion, treasure digging, flat-earth theories, or an invisible man near Kolob who cares about humans: There is no real evidence or example of success. In fact, one has to set aside evidence to believe in these things.


This reminds me of the folks who like to trot out the theory that I have "faith" that the sun will rise tomorrow. Nope I'm sorry, I've seen the "sun rise" tens of thousands of times in my life. Not once in any 24 hour period in my lifetime has the earth stopped rotating. While I cannot say with absolute certainty that "the sun will rise tomorrow" I have plenty of evidence to believe that "the sun will rise tomorrow" without using any sort of "faith" statement.

No, not all "faiths" are created equal.

[deacon blues]

Is this the same kind of faith that made Steve Jobs keep working after he was fired by Apple Computers, or caused Abraham Lincoln to keep running for public office, or caused Thomas Edison to keep trying to invent the light bulb? Are all faiths equal? Are they discernible only after they later succeed or fail?

No. Blind religious faith is not the same as the "faith" that Steve Jobs, Abraham Lincoln, or Thomas Edison had.

When it comes to human accomplishment, there is plenty of evidence in the real world that humans can be successful if they work hard, and are willing to fail over and over until they eventually succeed.

With faith in deeply held beliefs such as religion, treasure digging, flat-earth theories, or an invisible man near Kolob who cares about humans: There is no real evidence or example of success. In fact, one has to set aside evidence to believe in these things.


This reminds me of the folks who like to trot out the theory that I have "faith" that the sun will rise tomorrow. Nope I'm sorry, I've seen the "sun rise" tens of thousands of times in my life. Not once in any 24 hour period in my lifetime has the earth stopped rotating. While I cannot say with absolute certainty that "the sun will rise tomorrow" I have plenty of evidence to believe that "the sun will rise tomorrow" without using any sort of "faith" statement.

No, not all "faiths" are created equal.

1+ Yep. To me real faith requires some good hard evidence. I couldn't have put it this well, however. Thanks!