NOM

According to a news story on the radio this morning. I wonder if this is the reason for rumors that one of the new revelations will have something to do with more flexible mission lengths.

There was a survey released this week showing it was over 30%... I wonder if the 20% was from the church or that survey.

It makes sense to give men the 18 month option though - it would make their #s a lot better and maybe some more would choose to go if they knew it wasn't a full two years.

I feel so so so bad for missionaries who are out there now trying to compete with the truth all being available in a ten second Google search. They have no chance.

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:25 am

According to a news story on the radio this morning. I wonder if this is the reason for rumors that one of the new revelations will have something to do with more flexible mission lengths.

This was a trend I noticed, going back about a decade ago. YM I taught for 3-4 years and saw going out then coming back a few months later, not from any sin but for emotional reasons.

Based on what I knew and observed about their parents and personalities, and I'm being a bit judgmental here, they were ill equipped to handle being out on their own, talking to strangers, dealing with companions, etc. Perhaps it was over coddling of helicopter parents, the trend in white middle and upper class tribes of the "everyone is special and get's an award for participation", the prosperity curse of no work ethics where kids were allowed lots of video game time or even playing basketball in the front yard while a service came over to mow the yard and take care of the weeding. Probably lots of factors involved here and I'm guessing by lowering the age the COB made it worse.

I did a summer of Army basic training in 1980, a couple of weeks after I turned 17, yelled at by drill sergeants, crawling through mud, shooting guns and throwing hand grenades, hanging out with kids from the bronx and other gnarly hoods...a mission was a vacation for me!

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:10 am

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:25 am

According to a news story on the radio this morning. I wonder if this is the reason for rumors that one of the new revelations will have something to do with more flexible mission lengths.

This was a trend I noticed, going back about a decade ago. YM I taught for 3-4 years and saw going out then coming back a few months later, not from any sin but for emotional reasons.

Based on what I knew and observed about their parents and personalities, and I'm being a bit judgmental here, they were ill equipped to handle being out on their own, talking to strangers, dealing with companions, etc. Perhaps it was over coddling of helicopter parents, the trend in white middle and upper class tribes of the "everyone is special and get's an award for participation", the prosperity curse of no work ethics where kids were allowed lots of video game time or even playing basketball in the front yard while a service came over to mow the yard and take care of the weeding. Probably lots of factors involved here and I'm guessing by lowering the age the COB made it worse.

I did a summer of Army basic training in 1980, a couple of weeks after I turned 17, yelled at by drill sergeants, crawling through mud, shooting guns and throwing hand grenades, hanging out with kids from the bronx and other gnarly hoods...a mission was a vacation for me!

I agree with you to an extent about the coddling of the millennials. But sharing an observation from my mission era (early 90's). There was a common belief about us sister missionaries at that time: the only girls who served missions were either A. Spinsters who were too ______(fill in the blank) to get married, or B. Crazy. There were no other categories for the sisters at all.

I definitely had my share of companions with real and mostly untreated mental illness. I would like to think that maybe in this era, society is recognizing mental illness and perhaps these young missionaries are getting treatment that the ones from my era were never offered.

Another anecdote from my mission: one of the Elders in my district was constantly participating in dare-devil antics- jumping off the roof of the church, trees and anything else he could climb. I asked him why he was always doing such crazy stuff and he jokingly said so he can get hurt and go home. At the time, I really don't think his actions were because he didn't believe in the sales pitch, but more of an inability to cope with the pressure and the work. He wasn't handling it well and had problems with his companion. He went home a couple of transfers later with a compound fracture of his arm.

Here is a wacky idea....you pick how long to go! 1 year, 18 months, 2 years...your choice and you can bail out when you want.

The source is here: https://janariess.religionnews.com/2018 ... udy-shows/

A lot of the missionaries who went in the 80s (like me) did it because they were told they would go to hell if they didn't.

It destroyed so many people. If you came home early back then, or didn't go, you were an outcast. The church doesn't tolerate less than "Nephi perfecton!"

Brent wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:03 am

Here is a wacky idea....you pick how long to go! 1 year, 18 months, 2 years...your choice and you can bail out when you want.

18 days?

(I might be OK with my kids serving for 18 days...)

Brent wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:03 am

Here is a wacky idea....you pick how long to go! 1 year, 18 months, 2 years...your choice and you can bail out when you want.

I like this idea in theory, but this will quickly be a chance for virtue signalling. "Elder Smith stayed two years, not just 6, 12, or 18 months like those possibly less faithful missionaries. He made a greater sacrifice for the prophet."

It's well known that Monson announced the age change in 2012 as simply being an option to go as early as 18. But it's the hot new display of righteousness for high school boys to announce their mission call during graduation. There is a lot of social pressure to head out as soon as you reasonably can. I don't see local leaders or general authorities emphasizing that it's OK for 20 year olds to also head out on a mission.

jfro18 wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:38 am

I feel so so so bad for missionaries who are out there now trying to compete with the truth all being available in a ten second Google search. They have no chance.

Our ward and stake (not in Utah) are still baptizing semi-regularly. Most of the converts are those who just aren't proactive enough to look anything up besides what the missionaries give them. Less than half of those converts (maybe less than 1/3) are still active after 3-6 years, but I don't think that's much different that its been historically. The same lack of self-motivation that prevented them from finding real truth in a 10 second Google search translates directly into church inactivity later on.

edit: I posted before finishing my though...

Of course its the interactions with those who ARE proactive in finding truth and who do the 10-second search on the internet that will cause problems. Those people never come to church and don't get baptized because they're not idiots, and they inevitably share their findings back with the missionaries.

So, you're right. Even if baptisms are coming in, there is no way they can avoid running into actual real truth in the world of today. That would quickly make a mission seem pointless at best, and leave only social pressure to keep you in the field.

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:09 am

A lot of the missionaries who went in the 80s (like me) did it because they were told they would go to hell if they didn't.

It destroyed so many people. If you came home early back then, or didn't go, you were an outcast. The church doesn't tolerate less than "Nephi perfecton!"

I did genuinely want to go on my mission. My parents were also very kind. However, I had friends who were told that their parents would want them to be in a coffin if they came home early. The pressure to stay was immense.

I think more than 20% are coming home early. Those who stay often don't fair any better.

I've posted this before, but about 15 years ago I was in the office of a mental health profession in SL County. The whole porn/masterbation topic was really hitting the valley with lots of pushing for 12 step groups. For some reason we were talking about how missionaries sometimes struggle, and how the church seemed so happy to discipline or disfellowship around that issue. That opened up an interesting conversation about missions with this woman. I mentioned that I often felt guilty, because frankly, it WASN'T the best 2 years of my life. This woman responded that the majority of RMs often feel the same way, because her office is filled to capacity with RM's that she is trying to help nurse back to any sense of mental health.

Depression, self hatred, failure complex, guilt and oh yes...masterbation, are RAMPANT in the RM population.

Many of those people (and I am only speaking of the men at this moment because that was the focus of this conversation) would have done better to have NOT gone. Missions are NOT for everyone. Some are severely damaged by them.

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:09 am

A lot of the missionaries who went in the 80s (like me) did it because they were told they would go to hell if they didn't.

It destroyed so many people. If you came home early back then, or didn't go, you were an outcast. The church doesn't tolerate less than "Nephi perfecton!"

I went in the '80s and didn't even consider not going. As Spencer W. Kimball said, "Every worthy able young man should serve a mission." It was an absolute disaster for me, and I ended up coming home early (after about 3 months). I was completely and utterly ashamed and felt like a failure. It took me years to overcome the emotional damage that those three months caused. To be completely honest, I still carry scars from that experience.

I've also had the good fortune to have two sons serve missions, both of which also came home early. One is still active in the Church, the other has resigned.

crossmyheart wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:56 am

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:10 am

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:25 am

According to a news story on the radio this morning. I wonder if this is the reason for rumors that one of the new revelations will have something to do with more flexible mission lengths.

This was a trend I noticed, going back about a decade ago. YM I taught for 3-4 years and saw going out then coming back a few months later, not from any sin but for emotional reasons.

Based on what I knew and observed about their parents and personalities, and I'm being a bit judgmental here, they were ill equipped to handle being out on their own, talking to strangers, dealing with companions, etc. Perhaps it was over coddling of helicopter parents, the trend in white middle and upper class tribes of the "everyone is special and get's an award for participation", the prosperity curse of no work ethics where kids were allowed lots of video game time or even playing basketball in the front yard while a service came over to mow the yard and take care of the weeding. Probably lots of factors involved here and I'm guessing by lowering the age the COB made it worse.

I did a summer of Army basic training in 1980, a couple of weeks after I turned 17, yelled at by drill sergeants, crawling through mud, shooting guns and throwing hand grenades, hanging out with kids from the bronx and other gnarly hoods...a mission was a vacation for me!

I agree with you to an extent about the coddling of the millennials. But sharing an observation from my mission era (early 90's). There was a common belief about us sister missionaries at that time: the only girls who served missions were either A. Spinsters who were too ______(fill in the blank) to get married, or B. Crazy. There were no other categories for the sisters at all.

I definitely had my share of companions with real and mostly untreated mental illness. I would like to think that maybe in this era, society is recognizing mental illness and perhaps these young missionaries are getting treatment that the ones from my era were never offered.

Another anecdote from my mission: one of the Elders in my district was constantly participating in dare-devil antics- jumping off the roof of the church, trees and anything else he could climb. I asked him why he was always doing such crazy stuff and he jokingly said so he can get hurt and go home. At the time, I really don't think his actions were because he didn't believe in the sales pitch, but more of an inability to cope with the pressure and the work. He wasn't handling it well and had problems with his companion. He went home a couple of transfers later with a compound fracture of his arm.

“There was a common belief about us sister missionaries at that time: the only girls who served missions were either A. Spinsters who were too ______(fill in the blank) to get married, or B. Crazy. There were no other categories for the sisters at all.”

I was a missionary in the 90’s and I can confirm that this was true. Nowadays, it looks like sister missionaries are near 50% in Zone pictures and they look like a more average cross section of women.

profit_seizer wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:31 am

The source is here: https://janariess.religionnews.com/2018 ... udy-shows/

Like Jana Riess observed, "In the Millennial generation 35% of female missionaries returned early, compared to 29% of male missionaries".

Mahonri Moriancumer wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:47 pm

I went in the '80s and didn't even consider not going. As Spencer W. Kimball said, "Every worthy able young man should serve a mission." It was an absolute disaster for me, and I ended up coming home early (after about 3 months). I was completely and utterly ashamed and felt like a failure. It took me years to overcome the emotional damage that those three months caused. To be completely honest, I still carry scars from that experience.

I served out the full two years and felt fairly successful as a missionary but learned a couple of things from the experience that I'm sure church leadership wouldn't agree with.

1. The missionary isn't as important as the aquisition of baptisms. When every young man is expected to serve then they should be prepared to deal with every human frailty that can arise. The young man or woman is a human being BEFORE they are a missionary.

2. Rather than make me more perceptive and empathetic to others my mission tended to draw out the "legalist" in me. Perfection in obedience makes war with compassion and forgiveness. Thus without really wanting to we become "hardened".

In a word, the mission can be de-humanizing.

No one who volunteers to do what someone else is demanding of them should be then forced to face a culture of shame when they seem to fall short and were only trying to do their best.

It's leadership who should be ashamed for allowing such a toxic culture to develop.

Best to do your part and tell young persons in the church to not go unless they really want to, nothing wrong with skipping a mission altogether. I wish I would have been told something like that from a reliable adult.

I told my son some years ago he did not have to go on a mission. But if he chose to go he had to finish. So when the call came he wanted to come home I said no. You made the choice now live with it. It was hard for him but better than coming home early

I am a firm believer it is far better to never go than bail early

Mahonri Moriancumer wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:47 pm

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:09 am

A lot of the missionaries who went in the 80s (like me) did it because they were told they would go to hell if they didn't.

It destroyed so many people. If you came home early back then, or didn't go, you were an outcast. The church doesn't tolerate less than "Nephi perfecton!"

I went in the '80s and didn't even consider not going. As Spencer W. Kimball said, "Every worthy able young man should serve a mission." It was an absolute disaster for me, and I ended up coming home early (after about 3 months). I was completely and utterly ashamed and felt like a failure. It took me years to overcome the emotional damage that those three months caused. To be completely honest, I still carry scars from that experience.

I've also had the good fortune to have two sons serve missions, both of which also came home early. One is still active in the Church, the other has resigned.

Mahonri,...my heart goes out to you. I understand. I remember going into the worst depression of my life during my mission experience. We were told by a GA that our mission (I was in the Brisbane Australia mission after a massive crack-down) was the strictest in the world. We weren't to leave our apartment unless we were in our whites, and we didn't have a dinner....we had a breakfast and a late lunch as our policy.

I have an interesting story for you. In our mission, we were gunna have a sacrifice month where we showed the Lord we were serious--we were gunna exercise that extra level of faith and "call down the blessings of heaven". So, for one month, this was the policy:
1. Cut down the lunch/dinner from 1 hour to 45 min.
2. Cut 4 hours off PD and proselytize.
3. Stay out working until 9pm each night.
4. Challenge challenge challenge for baptism.

Guess what happened? We had the highest baptisms ever that month, for perhaps the last 5 years. And then after that month, the baptisms dropped off to the lowest levels ever, such that the net gain was negative as the result of that crazy month.

Phillip Sontag, the current GA 70, was furious when he heard what we did. He said: "They are working hard enough! You DON'T NEED TO TRY TO KILL THEM!"

Go figure. Thus is the cult mentality......

I saw missionaries destroyed out there. I saw depression and fear grow. Australians didn't like us knocking on their doors and calling them to repentance. We were a nuisance, and then there were these APs (Assistants to the President) who took it as a sign of valor to get spit on, robbed, hit, threatened, assaulted, etc. We were "suffering for Christ".

What a load of bullshit.

Corsair wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:27 am

I like this idea in theory, but this will quickly be a chance for virtue signalling. "Elder Smith stayed two years, not just 6, 12, or 18 months like those possibly less faithful missionaries. He made a greater sacrifice for the prophet."

Yep, you might be able to dig into the policies and doctrines to rebut such behavior, but they'll just concede your point (sometimes) and then go right back to it. You see it time and time again with number of children, facial hair, shirt color, pants versus skirts, and a ton of other little things. Going anything short of the maximum allowable time will be held over the heads of those electing for a shorter duration by not a few.

I can see the unofficial lessons now, "Ladies, if your college boyfriend couldn't even commit to the Lord for a full 2 years how can you be sure he has what it takes to commit to you for eternity?" or "Young Men, Jesus give his all for you, can you not give your all for 2 years? What if Jesus had decided to cut Gethsemane or the Cross short because he missed his X-Box?"

Blashyrkh wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:53 am

I recall a zone leader i had who at about 18 months just decided that he was done. No depression. No homesickness. He was just done. Didn't want to play anymore. So he bought a Mustang from a member and drive home to Florida. What a badass.

My new hero!!