Hierarchy and the Amazing Shrinking Gospel

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
Post Reply
User avatar
Lucidity
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:08 pm

Hierarchy and the Amazing Shrinking Gospel

Post by Lucidity » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:17 am

Is a ridged hierarchal religion antithetical to an expanding theology?

After joyfully missing the last few conferences i listened to about half of this conference. One thing that glaringly stood out to me, as a now outside looking in member, was how incredibly insular the “gospel” is. We all know it’s a cultural bubble, but I’m starting to appreciate the theological bubble that I think is even more insular.

I am struck at times by the richness and depth of many of the other faith traditions I’ve studied, in contrast to what i was taught as a TBM. This is aided by their age but also by the contributing commentaries by scholars, theologians and leaders within those traditions. These traditions are interested in history and philosophy in a way the church seems not to be. Without a centralized leadership, questions, speculation, and deep discussion flourishes. The theology expands because of the unknowns, and no one authority to put the kibosh on the discussion.

While listening to various religious leaders of many faiths it has struck me how freely they mention and quote those outside their particular tradition. In contrast, during GC nearly every quote was not only of an lds figure, but one on the stand next to them. They rarely even bother quoting past apostle and prophets anymore, yet alone any religious figure outside of Mo$&!nism. This creates a circular echo chamber that eventually leads to our current reductionistic talks. Flat, repetitive, uninteresting. A constant regurgitation of 4-5 themes.

Denver Snuffer(I’m not a follower) observed that the church’s theology grew under Joseph, but has been shrinking ever since. I think you could argue it also grew some under Brigham, but I think it’s undeniable that the theology is shrinking and what richness that was developing is slowly being gutted. What Mormon theologians leaders do we have? The last GA who seemed to even make an effort was Maxwell. Sure Bruce R worked to define and organize the theology, but his work has largely now been cast aside.

I think the church finds itself in a bit of a theological no mans land. It’s is a thoroughly modern church that has essentially no ties to any rich, deep, ancient theological tradition. Yet it is old fashioned and top heavy, and struggles to adapt to current social and technological changes.

In theory it seems a religion based on the claim that a prophetic leader can discern the truth found throughout world and add it to the gospel, as well as have god whisper in your ear, should yield incredible richness and understanding. Yet church leaders seem to find the outside world rather uninteresting and other traditions of no spiritual worth. Regardless it appears God doesn’t have much to say these days, and that he has said a lot of things that now he wishes he didn’t.

So a couple questions.

Is a rigid hierarchical religion antithetical to a rich expanding theology?
Can you ever see this trend reversing within Mormonism?
If intentional, is this a wise strategy for the church?

User avatar
Red Ryder
Posts: 4144
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:14 pm

Re: Hierarchy and the Amazing Shrinking Gospel

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:38 am

Nailed it. The top heavy organization becomes the focal point of the church which creates a theological doctrine of prophet and apostle worship.

This describes it perfectly.
Lucidity wrote:While listening to various religious leaders of many faiths it has struck me how freely they mention and quote those outside their particular tradition. In contrast, during GC nearly every quote was not only of an lds figure, but one on the stand next to them. They rarely even bother quoting past apostle and prophets anymore, yet alone any religious figure outside of Mo$&!nism. This creates a circular echo chamber that eventually leads to our current reductionistic talks. Flat, repetitive, uninteresting. A constant regurgitation of 4-5 themes.
Ironically, my FIL thinks this is a great attribute of the gospel. To him repetition is the glue that holds his testimony together. To me, it creates an inability to think.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

User avatar
blazerb
Posts: 1614
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:35 pm

Re: Hierarchy and the Amazing Shrinking Gospel

Post by blazerb » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:08 am

I think it's kind of like the Betamax vs. VHS fight or Apple vs. IBM back in the 80's. The winning platform was the one that allowed outside development and flexibility. The church wants to make sure that everyone has the same experience wherever they attend church. This sort of control does not seem to allow for enough variation for the sect to grow into a religion. It probably does satisfy the needs of enough people to maintain viability. I don't think COJCOLDSism will shrink and die anytime soon.

Also, charismatic leadership requires a personal connection with membership. If the church grows too big, that personal connection cannot be maintained. I think that leads to an upper limit on how big the church can expect to grow.

User avatar
RubinHighlander
Posts: 1906
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:20 am
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Re: Hierarchy and the Amazing Shrinking Gospel

Post by RubinHighlander » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:45 am

blazerb wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:08 am
The church wants to make sure that everyone has the same experience wherever they attend church. This sort of control does not seem to allow for enough variation for the sect to grow into a religion.
Does this match up with what we see in nature with inbreeding? If you don't have enough outside diversity entering the gene pool, the pool stagnates and eventually dies under it's devolving toxicity?
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

User avatar
Palerider
Posts: 2237
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:44 am

Re: Hierarchy and the Amazing Shrinking Gospel

Post by Palerider » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:30 am

RubinHighlander wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:45 am

Does this match up with what we see in nature with inbreeding? If you don't have enough outside diversity entering the gene pool, the pool stagnates and eventually dies under it's devolving toxicity?
This is exactly where I was heading.

And if one thinks about it, the church was heading there on both the temporal and spiritual levels.

Theologically they are just as incestuous as they were becoming socially/temporally through polygamy. The two levels are a reflection of each other.

Regarding doctrine, I get why there needs to be a "unity of the Faith". It's easy for corruption of doctrine to lead people astray. But if a relatively closed unchanging doctrinal foundation exists in the theoretical "True Church", then the compensation for that unexpanding doctrine is two fold.

1. Members will experience actual instead of percieved spiritual growth and blessings that truly make membership worthwhile. It's a great place to be. You really want to be there.

2. Real and timely revelation/direction would be given that would be so obvious in its validity that know one would have to "identify" it for you or tell you "Hey, you're receiving revelation and you didn't even know it."

The theoretical "True Church" would say, "We're not quoting outside sources because we're actually quoting what God told us this morning!"

The need for a two day "conference" with thirty-three speakers (I counted them), all quoting each other and trying to convince you to stay in the church....would disappear.

And good riddance...
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

User avatar
Corsair
Posts: 3080
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:58 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: Hierarchy and the Amazing Shrinking Gospel

Post by Corsair » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:10 pm

Lucidity wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:17 am
Is a rigid hierarchical religion antithetical to a rich expanding theology?
Can you ever see this trend reversing within Mormonism?
If intentional, is this a wise strategy for the church?
Well stated. In my reckoning, the answer to the first question is "Yes, usually. The second question gets a pretty obvious, "No". Whatever revolutionary spark that was infused by Joseph Smith has been out for solid century. The 100 year anniversary of the last canonized revelation was noted by Ballard in his GC talk in the past weekend. I found it particularly ironic that in a church headed by prophet, we don't add anything to the D&C.

For the third question, I certainly think believe that this is a wise strategy for a real estate holding company or PR firm. But for a church it seems to be an unflattering way to display their self-conscious fears amid the many older, richer traditions out there. The Great Apostasy is a line of rhetorical weakness that has not been fully explored. The Roman Catholic church, Eastern Orthodox church, Coptic church and others have kept their individual identities for centuries despite obvious changes through ecumenical councils, political maneuverings, and the Reformation. The LDS church is a bunch of lightweights in comparison.

This is a really tricky strategy and it's not up to me to prove it right or wrong. I just get to watch from the sidelines as 99% of the world ignores it at best and mocks it accusingly at worst.

User avatar
Emower
Posts: 1061
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:35 pm
Location: Carson City

Re: Hierarchy and the Amazing Shrinking Gospel

Post by Emower » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:25 pm

Corsair wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:10 pm
Lucidity wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:17 am
Is a rigid hierarchical religion antithetical to a rich expanding theology?
Can you ever see this trend reversing within Mormonism?
If intentional, is this a wise strategy for the church?
Well stated. In my reckoning, the answer to the first question is "Yes, usually. The second question gets a pretty obvious, "No". Whatever revolutionary spark that was infused by Joseph Smith has been out for solid century. The 100 year anniversary of the last canonized revelation was noted by Ballard in his GC talk in the past weekend. I found it particularly ironic that in a church headed by prophet, we don't add anything to the D&C.

For the third question, I certainly think believe that this is a wise strategy for a real estate holding company or PR firm. But for a church it seems to be an unflattering way to display their self-conscious fears amid the many older, richer traditions out there. The Great Apostasy is a line of rhetorical weakness that has not been fully explored. The Roman Catholic church, Eastern Orthodox church, Coptic church and others have kept their individual identities for centuries despite obvious changes through ecumenical councils, political maneuverings, and the Reformation. The LDS church is a bunch of lightweights in comparison.

This is a really tricky strategy and it's not up to me to prove it right or wrong. I just get to watch from the sidelines as 99% of the world ignores it at best and mocks it accusingly at worst.
It is a tricky strategy. It is the one I would employ if, like corsair says, one is more interested in surviving into the future with the same structure, the same sorts of familiar people with the same familiar issues which one knows how to deal with in the same old familiar ways. The interesting thing to me is that certain people do not want an expanding, rich theology. They would prefer a simple message and a checklist of tasks. The fact that there is a living prophet is a testament to them, and the fact that the gospel is simple and never seems to change is also a testament. Until it does change. Then that is also a testament. Come to think of it, everything is a testament to the predetermined outcome of the church being true.

User avatar
Lucidity
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:08 pm

Re: Hierarchy and the Amazing Shrinking Gospel

Post by Lucidity » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:15 am

Its interesting that it has played out this way. Looking back at the history of the church it seems this wasn’t a certainty. At some point the change was made from Joseph being a Muhammed or Moses like figure who was a unique instrument in the hands of God to bring forth Gods purpose, to “oh yeah and that thing Joseph was, all of us are that to. Thats why you need to follow us.” Over time “Prophet, Seer, and Revelatory” is gradually dumbed down to “The Lord impressed this on my mind”. Something when nailed down is no way unique to the experience of everyday members, or believers of other religions who interpret their experiences in that way.

Whats interesting is comparing the co-evolution of the RLDS over you years. The Community of Christ has slowly evolved into a much more nuanced and adaptive faith, albeit far smaller, and now less district form Christianity as a whole. Being much more willing to engage with current and relative topics. The Prophet/Presidents view of revelation is a much more realistic and honest view of how God could communicate. The don’t seem to fill the need to lead on the members and are open about actually constitutes their “revelation”. Whats their D&C up to now? 166 sections?

No doubt many people prefer a binary faith with a simple check list to follow. But I think the Churches hardline narrative of “Living Prophet of who speaks face to face with God” is becoming less and less sustainable. People are becoming more skeptical by nature and the evidence on the ground increasingly doesn’t match the claims being made.

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 7076
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Hierarchy and the Amazing Shrinking Gospel

Post by Hagoth » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:51 am

I can imagine various different outcomes for the church.

1- (most likely) It could go the route of Christian Science, which peaked in the mid-20th century and is falling off so rapidly that it may soon disappear. The problem is that it makes claims that are simply outdated by modern science and does not budge. I don't think this will happen in exactly the same way because the Mormon church is built upon a very wealthy income-generating corporation, but it could follow the same general pattern stretched out over a longer time frame. I can see Christian Science pretty much going away but Mormonism will probably always exist in some form as a corporate entity and land development concern.

2- (most cynical) This is an extension of the first option above. The church will make few concessions to the changing world around them. Tithing income will diminish and congregations will get older and poorer. The corporation will continue focusing on growing its business and ventures and political lobbying while downsizing the religious components. With negative contributors like Africa coming more into the picture, the church will start making local branches financially independent. Those who produce surplus will send it up the ladder but those who do not will have to tighten their belts and fend for themselves - a one-way money siphon. Failure of local branches and temples will be blamed on the locals' lack of faith and hard work. In this way the corporation will insulate itself from the physical needs of its members. The ultimate extension of this is that the church will continue to be a successful, prospering corporation with a dwindling membership. The remaining membership will become basically a prop to maintain the claim of being a religion. Eventually greed and corruption will creep into the upper echelons and a few people will become incredibly wealthy at the expense of everyone else. Imagine if at some point the corporation sole president just moved all of the assets into his own accounts, or conspired with his buddies to share it.

3- (least likely) A new "prophet" comes along and energizes the membership with a new message that pumps blood back into the church and gets the the young people engaged and working on improving their world. This would have to be a charismatic character who is able to both work his way up through the ranks AND cast off the old religion for new ideas. Unfortunately, this is exactly what the entire hierarchy is designed to prevent. No room for a Jesus or Martin Luther here. Meanwhile, this is how Russell Nelson likes to think of himself, even though he has nothing to offer beyond deck chair rearrangement.

4- (second least likely) At some point the church will wake up to the bleeding and ask "what are we doing wrong?" They will start a serious, but too little, too late campaign of coming clean on the skeletons in its closet, they will apologize for the harm the church has done, will become more inclusive, open-minded and honest, will become transparent with their finances and more giving of their wealth. By that point they will have lost a huge portion of their younger members and the act of coming clean will disillusion and drive away older members (see the Community of Christ). The remaining, much smaller and poorer church will be a good church that focuses on supporting and uplifts its members, rather than taking advantage of them and whipping them into submission.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
nibbler
Posts: 904
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:12 pm

Re: Hierarchy and the Amazing Shrinking Gospel

Post by nibbler » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:29 am

The church caters to people that want certainty. People that take comfort in "knowing" what the purpose of life is and where we're headed after death. Certainty creates the illusion of predictability and it's in our nature to want to find and adhere to a formula that will bring us success.

Change has a way of eroding our confidence. Why would anyone that is certain of something need to change? Would someone that already feels like the know all the answers ever find themselves in a position to receive radical revelation?
We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.
– Anais Nin

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: Hierarchy and the Amazing Shrinking Gospel

Post by moksha » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:30 am

I've been told that COJCOLDSism will never have a systematic theology because of its emphasis on continuing revelation and the possibility that such a revelation could overturn previous precepts.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

User avatar
foolmeonce
Posts: 92
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:28 pm

Re: Hierarchy and the Amazing Shrinking Gospel

Post by foolmeonce » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:21 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:38 am

Ironically, my FIL thinks this is a great attribute of the gospel. To him repetition is the glue that holds his testimony together. To me, it creates an inability to think.
I'm pretty sure that you and your FIL are on the exact same page. You just have different words that mean the same thing.
Neo: What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?
Morpheus: No, Neo. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to.

User avatar
foolmeonce
Posts: 92
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:28 pm

Re: Hierarchy and the Amazing Shrinking Gospel

Post by foolmeonce » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:27 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:51 am
I can imagine various different outcomes for the church.
5. Just to show that NOM takes all possibilities into consideration, I'll add one more. In the Church's darkest hour, just as the armies of the world are about to destroy it and its righteous leaders who have been right all along, JC descends from above, unleashes the wrath of God on those who would stand against HIS Church, and ushers in the 2nd coming.

Likeliness of Occurrence: 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000001 . (Nothing is impossible, right?)
Neo: What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?
Morpheus: No, Neo. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to.

User avatar
no1saint
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:49 pm

Re: Hierarchy and the Amazing Shrinking Gospel

Post by no1saint » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:29 am

100% agreed. By boxing in their authority and rigidly defining the FP and Q12 in council as the sole fount of godly revelation for the entire Church, it has removed theological development and advancement.

A constant rotation of lower level GA’s also leaves the influence on public debate on so called moral issues at a disadvantage as they are unable to foster a public profile. If the Church wants more influence internationally, roles like Area President need to be longer to enable stronger relationships.

It would be interesting for the Church to implement a synod style legislation process to enable the GA’s to consider and vote on policies and doctrinal changes.

Hogbreath
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:04 am

Re: Hierarchy and the Amazing Shrinking Gospel

Post by Hogbreath » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:33 am

After joyfully missing the last few conferences i listened to about half of this conference. One thing that glaringly stood out to me, as a now outside looking in member, was how incredibly insular the “gospel” is. We all know it’s a cultural bubble, but I’m starting to appreciate the theological bubble that I think is even more insular.
I'm also now an outside member looking in with many family members still faithful members. More and more I have come to view religion's value like the Buddhist parable of the raft. For those not familiar with this, a man comes upon a river and uses a raft to cross the river. He gets to the other side grateful for the raft's purpose in his journey. Now, what to do with the raft? Do you fall in love with the raft and get back in simply to ride back and forth over and over again from one bank of the river to the other again and again? Most people would say no. The raft served a purpose and continue their journey.

The purpose of a rich theology is like a raft IMO. Supposedly, to help individuals on their journey to enlightenment. However, enlightenment and individual growth are not really promoted in the church. Rather, adherence to dogma and obedience seem to be the main drivers in most of the re-cycled GC talks.

Most parents' job is to get rid of their job. Hopefully, children grow up to become independent, confident individuals with something to contribute through whatever talents they have or improve upon. They respect and love their parents for teaching them to be independent. This is probably the best form of parenting.

The church, on the other hand, in a theological sense, want to tie member's shoes, tell them what and how they should think, and keep them dependent. For many members that are still in, this can become like a stressed animal syndrome where they feel caged. That's how it was for me until I left. For others, I think they like the older parent that tells them what to do, keeps a watchful eye over them, tells them that there are terrible things out "in the real world" and you will "be safe" as long as you stay close to the church. Many, many, are content with doing just that. So, GC and the church leaders hashing and re-hashing the same old theology is just fine.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 26 guests