The Hate Some Members Cling to...

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Brent
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The Hate Some Members Cling to...

Post by Brent » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:21 pm

There are no words but their own...
https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtop ... 14&t=49731

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jfro18
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Re: The Hate Some Members Cling to...

Post by jfro18 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:06 pm

This is not the thing to read before bed...

It is absolutely insane how embedded hate for the LGBT community there is within the church.

I am so embarrassed to have ever believed that they should not be allowed to get married, and I'm angry at myself every day for not talking to my wife about this around the prop 8 times when I had some huge anger about this very issue with the church.

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Brent
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Re: The Hate Some Members Cling to...

Post by Brent » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:30 pm

I think DHO is one of these guys...

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moksha
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Re: The Hate Some Members Cling to...

Post by moksha » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:40 am

If I am remembering correctly, that particular forum is populated by COJCOLDS who are really into right-wing political thought. As such, it would only be representative of 80% of all COJCOLDS or less.

BTW, it is so cumbersome to write COJCOLDS. Wish the Church Admin would change their mind and bring back the word Mormon.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Corsair
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Re: The Hate Some Members Cling to...

Post by Corsair » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:49 am

I have to give them credit for the honesty of their convictions. I will keep some popcorn in my year supply for if and when some liberal rises up the ranks of the apostles.

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Rob4Hope
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Re: The Hate Some Members Cling to...

Post by Rob4Hope » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:50 am

Yeh...well....at one time I was one of these right wingers. I once knew some of the people in that group mentioned; they were followers of movements created by Cleon Skousen and Ezra Taft Benson: John Birchers, Eagle Forum members, and others. The Eagle Forum is still organized and politically active in the SLC area,...and as I recollect, even making some heavy waves currently in the marijuana debate happening as I write this post.

There are groups that meet regularly down in Utah County that are part of this group. They are still very right wing and seriously believe. I am not knocking them--HEY, i use to be one of them--but I don't agree with them at this point. As I see the influence they have, and the overt and covert influence the LDS church has in politics, it moves me past anger to a certain level of anxiety and deep concern. Its collusion at a sinister level,...it swings politics where they shouldn't be.

There is something I am concerned about with these 'hate' issues. Its this: when someone feels threatened, they move into a tribal mentality that throws out all sense of principled behavior. Ideas of forbearance, tolerance, and kindness to out the window. Mind you, it happens from both sides: I have in my life known some gay people who were aggressive in trying to provoke conflict so they could pull the persecution card and use it as a club to fight back and hurt those who they DEMANDED would accept, and in some instances, embrace what they believed was their cause. Hate swings both ways.

But in the context of this thread, and especially with this liberty group, it goes past the idea of just homosexual ideals. It goes to race, social class, education status, etc. Its truly tribal, restricted, and frightening on many levels.

If anyone hasn't seen the movie: "Black Clansman"...go see it. That movie has some humor,..but it captures some of this hate in a way that is fascinating.

When I was on my mission, I remember tracting into a man who was a vet and in a wheel chair. He was a white man, probably in his late 60s, and was a respected member of his community. He was also a Free Mason (and I'm not reading anything into that...nothing at all). What I found out that blew me away was that he was also a profound racist. He was filled with hate towards black people,...and it was a good experience for me to have met him because I saw, first hand, the utter justification that filled him in his opinions. I didn't understand it then, and still don't...but this self blindness was astonishing.

It made me wonder: "Wow,...I wonder where I am blind myself?" And THAT was a healthy reflection.

Anyway,...my point is that some of this hate you reference goes a lot deeper than just this issue. And its tribal and intense, spreading to families, communities, congregations and political bodies.

I believe MANY of the old guard were avide racists (I see the same countenance as I did with this racist vet guy), including Mark E. Peterson, Ezra Benson, Bruce McConkie, Howard Hunter, Legrand Richards, and others.

How sad.

That same racist hate in that old guard is alive and well in the new guard, but their targets are different. They justify Joseph Smith and others in horrendous sexual sin, and when someone honestly feels differently from what they themselves consider 'normal', this old guard has this visceral hate issue raise up inside. To me, its all got the same source---a desire to control.

They should apply some of their own teachings. Ezra Taft Benson gave a very good talk about Pride. Why don't these leaders learn from that talk?...cuz they are so SURE they are right, they will justify hate, even if it kills its own members who commit suicide.

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Re: The Hate Some Members Cling to...

Post by Arcturus » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:13 am

Wow. Wasn't aware of that forum. Thanks for sharing. That OP is insane and god-awful.

Was scanning some of the other posts on there and it literally made me depressed. Makes me understand the perspective of Richard Dawkins-type folks who hate organized religion. Shocking that people believe what they believe and say some of the s*** that is on that forum.
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin

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moksha
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Re: The Hate Some Members Cling to...

Post by moksha » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:57 am

Rob4Hope wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:50 am
I believe MANY of the old guard were avid racists (I see the same countenance as I did with this racist vet guy), including Mark E. Peterson, Ezra Benson, Bruce McConkie, Howard Hunter, Legrand Richards, and others.
The apostle that the BYU Law School is named after, J. Reuben Clark, used to hand out copies of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Brent
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Re: The Hate Some Members Cling to...

Post by Brent » Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:55 pm

What entertains me is the argument they have over "nature v. Nuture". The head homophobe is ruthless about Nurture but never asks why the Church nurtures so many Gay kids...

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Lucidity
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Re: The Hate Some Members Cling to...

Post by Lucidity » Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:28 pm

I’ll push back a little here, and defend these folks a bit. I think its important to remember that these people are approaching this with their conclusions already made. Conclusions that they likely didn’t have the chance to form for themselves. They don’t have much room to work with here.

A few things are non-negotiable in the world view that they have been given by the Church:
1. Homosexual activity is a sin.
2. The traditional family is ordained of God, and Satan wants to destroy it.
3. The “world” is pressuring the church to abandon or change what God has revealed as truth.

With that in mind I think most of the posts were pretty benign and actually quite logical and reasonable, considering the above worldview. Sure you had a few zealots, but even other forum members tried to keep those folks in check.

I don’t agree with their point of view at all, but that being said I also find the vast majority not to be hateful. Believing homosexual marriage is a sin and undermines traditional marriage is not hate. This is an opinion, a belief. It’s not made up to prop up animosity. It is based on millennia of anti-gay culture. If these people were advocating persecution, bullying, harassment etc, that would be different. But I didn’t see that in these posts. I actually saw a number of folks encouraging the opposite. So I feel comparing these folks to actual hate groups that literally encourage violence, such as the KKK, is not helpful or honest.

Also, I used to be one of these guys. When gay marriage was legalized I felt sick to my stomach. I felt like righteousness, and our heritage of the family unit was being undermined. But even then I had a couple friends that were openly gay and never treated a LGBT person any different than I would anyone else. I didn’t hate them anymore then than I do now. I just believed it was a sin. It was wrong. Like other sins we have to overcome it. That isn’t hate. I was wrong, and I now can see that my position likely caused my friends some pain. Later as I apologized to them they said that it was cool, and they respected me to live my beliefs.

Let’s not forget that this change of view on LGBTQ issues is incredibly recent, and was very sudden. Two vaunted progressives, Obama, and Hillary, ran for President on a pro tradition marriage stance. 7-8 yrs later anyone who is slow to come around to this sudden shift is the incarnation of evil itself. It’s a little ridicules, and not very generous to those people who find this stance conflicting with their cherished beliefs.

This has become the norm in politics. People assume the worse of people that they disagree with. Its not enough to think someone is wrong, they have to have harmful intentions too. I think this is destructive and slows the progress that we all hope for.

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