Was there an investigation into Laban's death?

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Red Ryder
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Was there an investigation into Laban's death?

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:58 am

With the recent killing of a Saudi journalist in the news, I've got to wonder if the brutal death and decapitation of Laban by the hand of Nephi prompted an investigation by the Jerusalem police or investigative body in place at that time.

It would seem practical that when a man as important as Laban gets killed and beheaded that someone would investigate and be concerned with finding a dangerous killer on the loose.

Wouldn't there be a written record of this investigation somewhere to corroborate the Nephi story?
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jfro18
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Re: Was there an investigation into Laban's death?

Post by jfro18 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:03 am

There was a huge investigation that divided the entire land but the details were lost in the original 116 pages, and in the small plates they just didn't have time for it.

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Emower
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Re: Was there an investigation into Laban's death?

Post by Emower » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:10 am

Fake News. I dont think it actually happened. It was probably the Babylonians fomenting polarization amidst the Nephites.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Was there an investigation into Laban's death?

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:13 am

Fair Mormon doesn't think it's fake news. They don't talk about any potential investigations though. They only quite Nibley who rants about the lack of street lights, clean and swift beheadings, and body armor. Perhaps police investigations were also a luxury known today similar to street lights!
Hugh Nibley pointed out:

From time to time the claim is put forth that the story of Laban's death is absurd, if not impossible. It is said that Nephi could not have killed Laban and made his escape. Those who are familiar with night patrolling in wartime, however, will see in Nephi's tale a convincing and realistic account. In the first place, the higher critics are apparently not aware that the lighting of city streets, except for festivals, is a blessing unknown to ages other than our own. Many passages might be cited from ancient writers, classical and Oriental, to show that in times gone by the streets of even the biggest towns were perfectly dark at night, and very dangerous....

The extreme narrowness of ancient streets made their blackout doubly effective. From the Greek and Roman comedy and from the poets we learn how heavily barred and closely guarded the doors of private houses had to be at night, and archaeology has shown us cities farther east (e.g., Mohenjo-Daro) in which apparently not a single house window opened onto the public street, as few do even today at ground level. East and West, the inmates simply shut themselves in at night as if in a besieged fortress. Even in Shakespeare's day we see the comical terror of the nightwatch passing through the streets at hours when all honest people are behind doors. In a word, the streets of any ancient city after sundown were a perfect setting for the committing of deeds of violence without fear of detection.

It was very late when Nephi came upon Laban (1 Nephi 4:5,22); the streets were deserted and dark. Let the reader imagine what he would do if he were on patrol near enemy headquarters during a blackout and stumbled upon the unconscious form of some notoriously bloodthirsty enemy commander, renowned for his brutal and treacherous treatment of friend and foe alike. By the rough code of war the foe has no claim to a formal trial, and it is now or never. Laban was wearing armor, so that the only chance of dispatching him quickly, painlessly, and safely was to cut off his head—the conventional treatment of even petty criminals in the East, where beheading has always been by the sword, and where an executioner would be fined for failing to decapitate his victim at one clean stroke. Nephi drew the sharp, heavy weapon and stood over Laban for a long time, debating his course (1 Nephi 4:9—18. He was an expert hunter, a skilled swordsman, and a powerful man:11 with due care such a one could do a quick and efficient job and avoid getting much blood on himself. But why should he worry about that? There was not one chance in a thousand of meeting any honest citizen, and in the dark no one would notice the blood anyway. What they would notice would be the armor that Nephi put on, and which, like the sword, could easily be wiped clean. The donning of the armor was the natural and the shrewd thing for Nephi to do. A number of instances from the last war could be cited to show that a spy in the enemy camp is never so safe as when he is wearing the insignia of a high military official—provided he does not hang around too long, and Nephi had no intention of doing that. No one dares challenge "big brass" too closely (least of all a grim and hot-tempered Laban); their business is at all times "top secret," and their uniform gives them complete freedom to come and to go unquestioned.

Nephi tells us that he was "led by the Spirit" (1 Nephi 4:6). He was not taking impossible chances, but being in a tight place he followed the surest formula of those who have successfully carried off ticklish assignments. His audacity and speed were rewarded, and he was clear of the town before anything was discovered. In his whole exploit there is nothing in the least improbable.

How Nephi disguised himself in the clothes of Laban and tricked Laban's servant into admitting him to the treasury is an authentic bit of Oriental romance (e.g., Haroun al-Rashid) and of history as well. One need but think of Sir Richard Burton's amazingly audacious masquerades in the East, carried on in broad daylight and for months on end with perfect success, to realize that such a thing is entirely possible.[2]
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Emower
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Re: Was there an investigation into Laban's death?

Post by Emower » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:38 am

Those babylonians were playing the long game. They sent a message to Nephi (via an intercontinental carrier Red-Necked Phalarope memo) instructing the insertion of the account into the plates. This does in fact bring up a fascinating theory of Nephi colluding with the Babylonians to make himself seem more impressive than he really was. The Babylonians gave Nephi what he needed to succeed as "leader" among the Nephites, Nephi was in turn supposed to send back the much coveted cocoa bean. Instead he just turned on them, wrote a bunch of stuff about how they were going to destroy the Jews, and in retaliation they did destroy the Jews.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Was there an investigation into Laban's death?

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:59 am

Are you inferring Nephi was a subversive as described in the The Lachish Letters?
By the way these letters prove there probably was a police investigation into the death of Laban. They prove that evidence was collected and trials were held against military commanders.

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/pdf-con ... _of_M.html

The letters survived the heat because they were written on potsherds.

They were written on potsherds because the usual papyrus was unobtainable.

It was unobtainable because the supply from Egypt was cut off.

The supply was cut off because so the war.

The letters were in the guardhouse because they were being kept as evidence in the pending trial of a military commander whose name was Hoshayahu.

He was being court-martialed because he was suspected of treason.

He was suspected of treason because someone had been reading top-secret dispatches sent from the court at Jerusalem to the commander at Lachish, whose name was Ya'ush.

Hoshayahu was a likely suspect because all the mail had to pass through his hands.

It all had to pass through his hands because he was in command of a fortified town on the road between Jerusalem and Lachish, probably Qiryat Ye'arim. His duty, among other things, was to forward the king's mail—not to read it.

That the confidential letters had been read was apparent because somebody had tipped off a certain prophet that he was in danger.

He was in danger because the king's soldiers had been put on his trail.

They were on his trail because he was fleeing to Egypt.

He was fleeing because he was wanted by the police in Jerusalem.

He was wanted by the police because he and other prophets were considered by the king's supporters to be subversives.
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Re: Was there an investigation into Laban's death?

Post by Rob4Hope » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:03 am

Red,

I found my stomach turning as I read the quote from Nibley. That guy gives me the creeps.

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Re: Was there an investigation into Laban's death?

Post by Corsair » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:06 pm

We need an episode of "CSI Jerusalem" investigating this crime. I don't doubt Brother Nibley's assesment of the initial circumstances of the crime. I'm just wondering about the uproar of the naked, headless body of a major city oficial being found by early morning citizens. This is not some destitute street hobo, any city watch would have known who this guy was.

The authorities eventually check at Laban's house and discover a trusted servant and the priceless Plates of Brass scriptures that would have been irreplaceable (and ridiculously heavy). Laban's servant is now a prime suspect and the guard of Laban's house is questioned. They quickly reveal that the sons of that recent prophet, Lehi, were there just yesterday asking to buy the plates and were turned away. This adds to the conspiracy and now the city leaders and religious leaders are united in their desire to track down these miscreants.

Lehi's house is, of course, searched. No one is there, but signs of recent habitation are noted. Nephi and his brothers were just there yesterday gathering treasure to try and buy the plates. A full scale search party would have been organized and sent in hot pursuit of Nephi along the major caravan trails that FairMormon assures us that Lehi would likely have taken.

I think we all know that the average believing Mormon (or whatever they want to call themselves these days) would reply to this scenario. Clearly, God intervened just enough to prevent Nephi, Zoram, Laman, and the other unfortunate souls from being caught. It is all very convenient that this story worked out just the right way.

It is an axiom of LDS thought that the Plates of Brass were incredibly important as a primary source of scripture. As inconvenient as they might have been to acquire and transport, they were necessary. It's not like Nephi could have simply recreated them through revelation by using a rock in a hat or some other easy way out. The physical plates were vital since simply having a prophet receive revelation on the exact books of scripture is not a viable way to have the word of the Lord.

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Re: Was there an investigation into Laban's death?

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:26 pm

Corsair's assumptions are equivalent to Nibley's.

I'm sure the CSI Jerusalem team set up a perimeter and narrowly missed Nephi. His escape from the dragnet was a miraculous tender mercy of The Lord.

Isn't great when you can just make up anything? No wonder Joseph kept going.
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Re: Was there an investigation into Laban's death?

Post by Hagoth » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:42 pm

Nephi was tried and found innocent. He was last seen wearing ill-fitting gloves while playing a round of golf at the Zarahemla country club. He insisted that he would not rest until he found the real killer.
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Re: Was there an investigation into Laban's death?

Post by Palerider » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:46 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:03 am
Red,

I found my stomach turning as I read the quote from Nibley. That guy gives me the creeps.

Same here. What a crap sucking load of bravado.

I don't recall Nephi being termed a "skilled swordsman" anywhere. Guess I'll have to double check that one.

Neither do I think it would have been easy to avoid getting bloody in the process of beheading Laban or having blood all over Laban's clothing which Nephi then puts on himself???

Nibley's been watching too many old black and white Hollywood movies where the bad guy gets shot but never bleeds...

And even if Laban was a party man, even he in his high position wouldn't venture into the dark streets alone. He'd have a buddy or servant with him, not waiting at home for the fake Nephi to mimic Laban's voice.

Nibley is/was the biggest crock producer in Mormondom outside of Joseph Smith himself.

ETA: It does read much later after the Lehites supposedly arrive in America, that Nephi weilded the sword of Laban on behalf of his people. But that was years AFTER the killing of Laban. There's nothing to suggest that Nephi, the son of a merchant, was an expert swordsman. Just more crap.

Get your boots...🙄
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moksha
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Re: Was there an investigation into Laban's death?

Post by moksha » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:42 pm

I remember writing a crime report before on the Laban murder. Can't remember if I posted it to Mormon Discussions or NOM or both.

Anyway, further investigative details can be found here. https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/201 ... rder-foul/

If you look online, you can even find the escape route the murderer took in fleeing the Jerusalem authorities. The moral of this story is that if you place the value of gold above human life you might either commit such a murder or else be involved in the Trump State Department.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Re: Was there an investigation into Laban's death?

Post by wtfluff » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:15 pm

Did the Jerusalem PD have the same investigating, recording and reporting capabilities as modern day Police Departments?

Was news of the murder broadcast over the seer-stone network on Eyewitness News at 5?
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Re: Was there an investigation into Laban's death?

Post by Thoughtful » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:28 pm

My seminary teacher taught that of course he switched clothes first and THEN beheaded him.

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Re: Was there an investigation into Laban's death?

Post by Palerider » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:54 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:28 pm
My seminary teacher taught that of course he switched clothes first and THEN beheaded him.
Would Nephi have been engaging in a little live porn had that been the case? :shock:
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Re: Was there an investigation into Laban's death?

Post by Rob4Hope » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:13 am

Palerider wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:46 pm
Rob4Hope wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:03 am
Red,

I found my stomach turning as I read the quote from Nibley. That guy gives me the creeps.

Same here. What a crap sucking load of bravado.

I don't recall Nephi being termed a "skilled swordsman" anywhere. Guess I'll have to double check that one.

Neither do I think it would have been easy to avoid getting bloody in the process of beheading Laban or having blood all over Laban's clothing which Nephi then puts on himself???

Nibley's been watching too many old black and white Hollywood movies where the bad guy gets shot but never bleeds...

And even if Laban was a party man, even he in his high position wouldn't venture into the dark streets alone. He'd have a buddy or servant with him, not waiting at home for the fake Nephi to mimic Laban's voice.

Nibley is/was the biggest crock producer in Mormondom outside of Joseph Smith himself.

ETA: It does read much later after the Lehites supposedly arrive in America, that Nephi weilded the sword of Laban on behalf of his people. But that was years AFTER the killing of Laban. There's nothing to suggest that Nephi, the son of a merchant, was an expert swordsman. Just more crap.

Get your boots...🙄
When I read this account, there were all kinds of things that didn't add up to me. The biggest was the blood. If you behead someone, there would be blood squirting and coming out all OVER the place. It would be a big mess. So, I kindof assumed that Nephi must have beheaded him with him on a steep decline so that his blood ran out and down. Then, after he was thoroughly bled out, Nephi somehow unbottoned his shirt or somehow removed it one arm at a time without it dipping anywhere near the pooling. I read above about him changing clothing before he did the beheading. But, this isn't how I ever read the story.

I also found it difficult to understand how Nephi could so thoroughly bamboozle Zoram. Nephi must have had intimate knowledge of Laban, and must have practiced his voice and been VERY good at it.

I learned later that the entire Laban story of being out among the brethren of "the Church" is anachronistic. Even before I knew what that meant this seemed wrong to me. Those people didn't have a church back then; it was a single deal--church and state were one and the same. So, there is a leadership difference? Wouldn't Laban be out among the leaders of the tribes?

It makes TOTAL SENSE to me now when I realize that back in those frontier days, the "Tall Tale" was not only a form of entertainment, it was a means of deception.

And back to Nibley. I once heard him discussing the "horse problem" in the BoM. He pontificated all OVER the place! But he never answered the question. He just baffled everyone with his total bull.

I never followed the guy, but I know people who all but worshipped him.

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Re: Was there an investigation into Laban's death?

Post by Palerider » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:51 am

Rob4Hope wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:13 am


And back to Nibley. I once heard him discussing the "horse problem" in the BoM. He pontificated all OVER the place! But he never answered the question. He just baffled everyone with his total bull.

I never followed the guy, but I know people who all but worshipped him.
Hugh Nibley:

Unfulfilled GA/Apostle wannabe. Must have been a terribly frustrating life to be so close and yet never chosen.
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Re: Was there an investigation into Laban's death?

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:14 am

Hugh did have that great quote about the leaders of the modern church being too much like the pharisees of old. Probably why he never got to be part of the GA club.


Image

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Palerider
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Re: Was there an investigation into Laban's death?

Post by Palerider » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:30 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:14 am
Hugh did have that great quote about the leaders of the modern church being too much like the pharisees of old. Probably why he never got to be part of the GA club.


Image
That's some pretty accurate stuff there. Hugh Nibley really said this? If so, good for him.

I guess even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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Re: Was there an investigation into Laban's death?

Post by Corsair » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:36 pm

Palerider wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:30 pm
That's some pretty accurate stuff there. Hugh Nibley really said this? If so, good for him.

I guess even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.
It's impressive how revered Nibley was and still is within LDS culture. This incisive quote from him has probably been leveled against the BYU Honor Code Office and the testing center for decades to no effect whatsoever. The moment Nibley strays slightly off the "obedience to authority" path he is immediately ignored. Any value in his of scholarship is directly correlated with how it aligns with what the current leadership is saying.

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