Sin, and an Omnipotant God who can't change His mind.

[Lucidity]

What are some examples of the church changing its stance one something that was considered a sin?

So I’ve been having some discussions with my TBM friend about whether its possible that the church could ever change its stance on homosexuality, where it would no longer be considered a sin. One of the arguments in the ‘no” camp is that in previous situations where the church has changed its stance on revealed doctrine, such as blacks and priesthood or the Adam God Theory, these were not a change regarding the very nature of what is considered or constitutes a sin.

Naturally, we would ask why can’t God change or decriminalize any sin that he wishes and whenever he wants? We often hear that there are certain “eternal” laws that God MUST adhere to. Never mind that this prevents God from actually being “omnipotent”. Plus, how can we mortals pretend to know what “laws” truly are eternal and not temporary? It seems if murder isn’t always evil, that really opens up the door of what actually is eternally wrong.

As mentioned, Murder and polygamy are pointed to as examples of when God gives permission or commands behavior that has been considered a sin for most of history accept at those select times when specifically commanded. A couple examples I point to are inter-racial marriage, and the ever sliding scale in the church of what is considered moral and chase. I feel that the latter is the easiest way to point out that apparently what god considers to be immodest and immoral changes along with the what the world does, albeit 30-40yrs behind. What constituted chastity and modesty today would utterly shock a Mormon in 1900. As a non-blooded male, even god cant condemn a well worn 2-piece swimsuit.

So there you have it:
1. What are examples of the church making a u-turn on a proclaimed sin?
2. What are some historical examples found in the Bible?
3. Is this even an issue, or can God do whatever he damn well pleases?

[Hagoth]

I remember hearing it stated in conference back in the 70s that birth control was the greatest sin in the world. I can't remember who said it and I'm not in a place where I can do much research.

[alas]

Let’s see, there is refusing to get your brother’s widow pregnant. So important that God zapped a guy for having sex with the brother’s widow, but pulling out befor finishing the deed. (An early form of birth control) In fact, some of what is interpreted as God commanding men not to masturbate or have relations with other men, was really God zapping a guy for refusing to get his brother’s widow pregnant. See, it would be his brother’s child and not his, so some dude pulled out early and spilled his seed on the ground, so God zapped him, which is kind of counter productive because THAT didn’t get the widow pregnant either. And how unfun for her to see her brother in law fried. No wonder we twist some of these stories around to make them make more modern sense.

Or, refusal to marry your youngest son to the widow of your older sons. Because you are sure that it is marriage to this woman that is killing them. This refusal was worse than Tamar’s father in law visiting the fertility temple and having sex with a temple priestess (“temple priestess” gets translated as “prostitute” but they were worshippers of the fertility Goddess, so, the father in law was worshipping a goddess, not the only true God, but this was not as much of a sin as it was considered later. But Tamar getting pregnant by anyone other than her dead husband’s kin was a stonning offense, so she had to prove it was her father in law who visited her at the fertility temple. But no problem being at the fertility temple?? No, problem for him worshipping at the fertility temple? Or even looking at it with the bad translation, no problem with him going to a prostitute, him being a married man and all.

Then there is also lack of hospitality. When three “messengers” (1) from God showed up in Sodom, the town’s people instead of welcoming them in from the desert, wanted to rape them. The town’s men threatened harm to the travelers This lack of hospitality was so grievous, that Lot offered his daughters instead. See, he was under obligation to protect his visitors at the risk of his own or his family’s life. Rather than offer himself to be raped, he did the chicken shit thing and offered his two daughters. Later in the Bible the sin of Sodom is talked about and specifically named as lack of hospitality to travelers. But now we all think the sin of Sodom is, well... Sodomy. Nope, it is threatening harm to travelers.

(1) this gets translated as angels, but it really meant messengers and was probably the servants from the prophet who had jurisdiction over Lot, sort of like Abraham paid tithing to a priest or prophet named Melchizedek.

Then there are Shadrak, Meshad, and Abendigo who were given to the palace Unich. Now, consider that the palace unich was who guarded the king’s harem. So, these three boys were part of the kings harem, but no problem with the homosexuality, just as long as they obeyed the Jewish diet.

[Corsair]

The silly reason why we can't quickly identify the change in status of "sin" is that the institutional church does not make some official pronouncement about such a change. No, they just stop talking about it and let the next generation slowly move into it letting the old guard look on in mild annoyance. Caffeinated drinks are one big example as well as most modesty standards. The problem is that new sins grow from the base LDS culture like sleeveless dresses on babies quietly becoming a cultural sin. Apologists and liberal leaders offer half apologies, but rarely step up and proclaim that any tithe-paying church member might be in error when they add their own new sins.

The famous 1982 letter banning oral sex is a good example of a sin that stopped being sinful. Leadership got pushback with something that apostles simply did not want to talk about publicly. So this 100% real and official letter was simply not talked about any longer. You can probably find some old stalwart who wants to uphold this standard, but even he would shrink before talking about this in front of the rising generation.

LDS leadership thrives best in an environment when public critique and feedback are not allowed. The average faithful Mormon thinks that Russell Nelson is a genius as well as an inspired prophet. But I would pay money to see Nelson have to publicly debate with a skeptic in some uncontrolled forum.

[Arcturus]

The famous 1982 letter banning oral sex is a good example of a sin that stopped being sinful.

Was gonna say the same thing.

If you really want to find some examples, dig into McConkie's Mormon Doctrine or Joseph Fielding Smith's Doctrines of Salvation. There's some interesting stuff in there. For example, I think JFS said that playing with face cards is sinful, and I know a few very orthodox members who to this day won't play with face cards because of it.

Would a white person mixing their seed with the seed of Cain be considered a sin? I'd say BY definitely thought so and tried to promulgate that belief. If blood atonement was the consequence for that, I think it's pretty safe to say it was considered a sin, at least to BY, who happened to be a prophet, seer, and revelatory, and who likely communed with Jesus face-to-face (according to the belief set of a TBM). I'm sure you could find juicy examples in the journal of discourses, particularly things stated by BY.

[Reuben]

I remember hearing it stated in conference back in the 70s that birth control was the greatest sin in the world. I can't remember who said it and I'm not in a place where I can do much research.

The ex-Mormon subreddit has you covered:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... _by_every/

[Reuben]

I remember hearing it stated in conference back in the 70s that birth control was the greatest sin in the world. I can't remember who said it and I'm not in a place where I can do much research.

The ex-Mormon subreddit has you covered:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... _by_every/

Also, the first hit in this search has some great stuff:

https://www.google.com/search?q=speaker ... control%22

Make sure you chase down the actual talks, though: one reference I checked under "Birth Control" was talking only about abortion, which while technically correct, wouldn't sway your average conservative.

You also get some amazing quackery on the side. From Elder Benson's October 1970 address:

There is more than one reason why the Church is advising our youth to attend colleges close to their homes where institutes of religion are available. It gives the parents the opportunity to stay close to their children; and if they have become alert and informed as President McKay admonished us last year, these parents can help expose some of the deceptions of men like Sigmund Freud, Charles Darwin, John Dewey, Karl Marx, John Keynes, and others.

Filthy liars, all of them.

Hagoth, I'm sure you'd find the talk you remember listed. From that same address, we have this, which is in the same ball park:

And let me warn the sisters in all seriousness that you who submit yourselves to an abortion or to an operation that precludes you from safely having additional healthy children are jeopardizing your exaltation and your future membership in the kingdom of God.