What would you expect if the church was true?

[jfro18]

I was thinking of writing up a list of things that you'd expect if the church was actually true... I am sure this has been covered elsewhere (I know I listened to a Mormon Expressions podcast about this months ago), but the last GenCon made me think about this a lot...

I put together a quick and rough 'top ten' list... what would you add because I am sure I am missing a lot here.

1. Evidence of BoM times
-Battle armor, evidence of reformed Egyptian, structures, temples, swords, bodies, DNA that matches Native Americans to Israel
2. Consistency in prophets, seers, and revelators
-How RMN spent 28 years to get the name 'change' as other leaders ignored him, how Joseph claimed revelation vs today, etc
3. Consistency in doctrine
-Blacks an the priesthood, polygamy, Adam-God theory, birth control, masturbation causes gayness, etc, etc
4. Confirmation of source material's authenticity
-Book of Abraham, Anachronisms, Deutero-Isaiah in BoM, Joseph plagiarizing Adam Clarke in the JST
5. Power of the priesthood for modern miracles and healing
-Why are there no modern miracles? No increased healing rates in Mormon heavy areas?
6. Being ahead of society on equality for blacks/women/LGBT
-Church was behind society about blacks and still have scriptures that call it a curse, women's roles, stance on LGBT
7. Teachings that are compatible with our advancements in science
-DNA and the Lamanites, LGBT and being a choice, Global flood, etc
8. Prophets that actually gave prophecy
-Pretty self-explanatory, but why don't the prophets since Joseph give actual prophesies? Why is the Proc to Family a legal document, priesthood ban being lifted effectively a group meeting,,etc.
9. Encouragement to members to research the church's history
-If the church was true, why do they fight so hard to keep members from researching it? A true church would *welcome* members to research because they would know they would come out on top almost every time.
10. Honest, Consistent History
-Why did the church hide the true translation method, lie about polygamy/polyandry, lie about the transfiguration of BY, Priesthood retrofitting, change translation method of BoA

I know there are a lot of other good ones -- use of feat to those who leave, inability to redo the 116 pages, Joseph stealing so much doctrine after BoM was written, convenience of revelations... etc.

Anyone have anything that they think would be a must-have in a true church that we just don't see in the Mormon, LDS, ETCOJCOLDS?

[Hagoth]

I think I'd be satisfied if the Book of Abraham was actually on the papyri.

[jfro18]

I think I'd be satisfied if the Book of Abraham was actually on the papyri.

That's the one they'll never get around... long scroll theories don't work and Joseph's own words tie the BoA to what we have and the facsimiles.

Now if only it was possible to get people to take the time to read about that, we could make some real progress with our loved ones.

[Rob4Hope]

Integrity in the leaders, actually showing some humility and saying: "I made a mistake in this decision. I did my best to follow what I believed God wanted, but I've been instructed clearly by God to go a different way on this matter."

I can't stand how the leaders set themselves up as being above everyone, and not subject to mistakes and problems. A true leader is humble and willing to show weakness like everyone else.

I personally don't connect with the glorious all powerful Jesus; I connect with the bleeding hurt man who knew how to cry.

[Arcturus]

If, "If the church was true" is the same thing as the church is God's one true church, I would expect the church to be the clear objective best organization on earth in:
- Caring for orphans
- Caring for abandoned children
- Caring for the poor

My #1 issue with the church is I believe the church is filthy rich, in the realms of net worth being at or above $0.5 trillion. I also concede that Mormons possess organization with near military precision. The COJCOLDS could dominate in the above 3 areas and have a clear impact for good on humanity. Currently, they hoard their wealth and enjoy their obscurity as a U.S. church that speaks to the average privileged white person.

[FreeFallin]

I would be satisfied with fruits of the labor resulting in things like:

-Effectiveness. Imagine if living the principles of the Gospel actually supported people's happiness, growth, and development.
-Love and acceptance of all humans. Not just for the in-group.
-Happiness. Just a natural by-product of living the teachings.
-Usefulness. Difficult problems that come up in everyone's life would be met with principles that help people to navigate effectively.

Fruits like this would be pretty convincing to me.

[Red Ryder]

I'd expect to be living in the same fashion as the original Frontier Sex Cult set up by Joseph Smith in 1830.

This pansy organization today has veered so far away from the original doctrines God revealed to His Prophet, even Joseph Smith, that a decent God fearing man of today has to wonder "what would you expect if the church was true?"

#GreatAposty2.0

[Lucidity]

The bizarre thing is that most of the points that have been listed above are the very things that believing members do look to for belief confirmation. It’s the strangest “emperor has no cloths” situation.

I’ve talked to a number of my TBM friends about this, with them being largely unfazed of course. They would never accept most of these things as evidence outside the realm of the church. The exact same “evidences, claims and proofs” would be shrugged off as unconvincing if being made by another faith tradition.

The current Church News says “The Miracle Unfolding in South America” on the cover. Referring to “evidence” that scores of other churches could also point to.

Once you are heavily invested in something and the cost of walking away passes a certain threshold, Confirmation Bias becomes the most powerful drug on the market.

[alas]

First of all, there ever would have been hurtful doctrines. So, polygamy would never have been started. Blacks would never have been children of Cain or fence sitters or less valiant in the pre-existence. There never would have been a priesthood or temple ban on blacks. The temple ceremony never would have put women subservient to men, and in fact women would have the priesthood from the time the Relief Society was organized. We would have had about six female prophets and four black and several native Americans. In fact, there would be more than 50% female prophets because on average women live longer, or maybe the position of prophet would be based on merit instead of longevity.

So, historically, we would have had an unrecognizable church.

The BoM would stand up to modern findings, so there would have been no horses or elephants in it, or other anacronysms in it. So, the BoM would be a VERY different book. The BoA would match the scroll, and it wouldn’t have any laughable astronomy in it to begin with. So, our scripture would be very different from the start.

God would not have wasted his breath on “no hot drinks”, instead he would have told them to boil all water before drinking and if coffee and tea is the only way they are going to do that, then start the babies on coffee as soon as they are weaned. But boil the water, boil the water, boil the water. He would have taught them more about hygiene and less about things that were just common superstition. Sure, God would have said whole grains are good, but not because they prevent masturbation, but because they prevent another common ailment called constipation.

The church today would have seen that gay marriage gives gays a stable and happy life and promotes monogamy and would never cause the extinction of the human race because everybody goes gay. They would have equally seen the good in effective birth control instead of panicking about the extinction of the human race. (What is it with panicking about the extinction of the human race?) They would have seen it as something that can prevent death in women with dangerous pregnancies and give women control so they are not having more than they can raise. Church leaders would not panic at every new hair style or facial hair style or bright pink hair style. They would not panic at new technology and suggest how evil it is or suggests fasts from the latest tech. They would not panic about new styles of music and say it is of Satan just because they personally don’t like it. Modesty would be taught as principles of moderation rather than lines on the skin or number of earrings.

The church today would have only enough money to be ”sufficient for our needs” because you can buy anything with money, either an end to poverty or land in Florida. They would give all excess tithing to the poor, or education focusing primarily on women because educated women has been proven to be the best thing to fight poverty. Missionaries would be digging wells for clean water rather than knocking on huts to convert people.

The church’s priorities would be different and we would not have to knock doors to find converts because people would come to us because they see what kind of people we are. Instead of focusing on tithing and temples, the church would focus on kindness and charity. Instead of following the prophet, we would teach following Jesus. Instead of teaching the importance of where you marry, they would focus on how you treat your family as what makes marriage and family eternal.

So, the church would have totally different history, totally different scripture, totally different leaders, totally different priorities.

[Palerider]

I would be satisfied with fruits of the labor resulting in things like:

-Effectiveness. Imagine if living the principles of the Gospel actually supported people's happiness, growth, and development.
-Love and acceptance of all humans. Not just for the in-group.
-Happiness. Just a natural by-product of living the teachings.
-Usefulness. Difficult problems that come up in everyone's life would be met with principles that help people to navigate effectively.

Fruits like this would be pretty convincing to me.

This! Excellent observation. Truly edifying fruit from a true tree.

[jfro18]

So, the church would have totally different history, totally different scripture, totally different leaders, totally different priorities.

Alas this response is amazing - I will be incorporating some of this in there for sure whenever I get a chance to get it done!

[Palerider]

Much has already been covered above. Here are a few of mine.

General Conference would barely be three hours long.
One talk given by the current prophet and a couple of follow ups by one or two real Apostles and you'd be done. Current conference is nothing but a three day "rah,rah" session you could get at any Amway booster conference.

ETA: Aren't thirty-three speakers just a little bit of over-kill??? Really? Thirty-three?

No temple rites or ceremonies at all. The two main ordinances in the true Church are baptism (at an appropriate age) and the Sacrament (performed with bread and "fruit of the vine").

Current Sacrament is a perversion of Christ's instructions as to how to remember him. It is also a sign that the "Mormon church" is not the true church. As the scriptures say, "They have changed the ordinance, broken the Everlasting Covenant."

Edited for scriptural correctness.

[Thoughtful]

I was just talking to my son saying if RMN were a prophet, he would be:

- Selling assets and vaccinating Africa, drilling water wells, and feeding the hungry.
- Advocating for gay, transgender, women, and minority rights.
- Using political influence to help people

And so on.

[wtfluff]

I have nothing to add to this thread, except that my magic rock says this thread rocks!

[Stig]

I'd expect to be living in the same fashion as the original Frontier Sex Cult set up by Joseph Smith in 1830.

This pansy organization today has veered so far away from the original doctrines God revealed to His Prophet, even Joseph Smith, that a decent God fearing man of today has to wonder "what would you expect if the church was true?"

#GreatAposty2.0

#smartass

[deacon blues]

The search for Truth and Love would be equal to or greater the effort to increase the Church's power and influence.

[moksha]

To me, what's done is done. Truth from this point on would be to fess up regarding inaccuracies and cease any further falsehoods. I believe the Church can be a force for good in the world and offer spiritual guidance for its members. I think something can be as good as gold even if it did not start out that way. There is no need to wish for elements of truth claims when the simple truth of goodness can be forged anew.

[Lucidity]

First of all, there ever would have been hurtful doctrines. So, polygamy would never have been started. Blacks would never have been children of Cain or fence sitters or less valiant in the pre-existence. There never would have been a priesthood or temple ban on blacks. The temple ceremony never would have put women subservient to men, and in fact women would have the priesthood from the time the Relief Society was organized. We would have had about six female prophets and four black and several native Americans. In fact, there would be more than 50% female prophets because on average women live longer, or maybe the position of prophet would be based on merit instead of longevity.

So, historically, we would have had an unrecognizable church........

So, the church would have totally different history, totally different scripture, totally different leaders, totally different priorities.

Thats an interesting thought experiment. It begs to wonder whether a religion being consistent with current social and moral norms is a good way to gage its divinity, or historical goodness. Since morals, ethics, and what we view as “hurtful” is ever moving and evolving, its seems certain that 300 years from now people will find things in our highest moral standards just as hard to justify as we now see the then accepted inequalities of past centuries. Just as we now view most superstitious practices as painfully reminders of their blatant falsehood, in there day these were often what inspired faith and were evidence of Gods involvement.

[Rob4Hope]

First of all, there ever would have been hurtful doctrines. So, polygamy would never have been started. Blacks would never have been children of Cain or fence sitters or less valiant in the pre-existence. There never would have been a priesthood or temple ban on blacks. The temple ceremony never would have put women subservient to men, and in fact women would have the priesthood from the time the Relief Society was organized. We would have had about six female prophets and four black and several native Americans. In fact, there would be more than 50% female prophets because on average women live longer, or maybe the position of prophet would be based on merit instead of longevity.

So, historically, we would have had an unrecognizable church.

The BoM would stand up to modern findings, so there would have been no horses or elephants in it, or other anacronysms in it. So, the BoM would be a VERY different book. The BoA would match the scroll, and it wouldn’t have any laughable astronomy in it to begin with. So, our scripture would be very different from the start.

God would not have wasted his breath on “no hot drinks”, instead he would have told them to boil all water before drinking and if coffee and tea is the only way they are going to do that, then start the babies on coffee as soon as they are weaned. But boil the water, boil the water, boil the water. He would have taught them more about hygiene and less about things that were just common superstition. Sure, God would have said whole grains are good, but not because they prevent masturbation, but because they prevent another common ailment called constipation.

The church today would have seen that gay marriage gives gays a stable and happy life and promotes monogamy and would never cause the extinction of the human race because everybody goes gay. They would have equally seen the good in effective birth control instead of panicking about the extinction of the human race. (What is it with panicking about the extinction of the human race?) They would have seen it as something that can prevent death in women with dangerous pregnancies and give women control so they are not having more than they can raise. Church leaders would not panic at every new hair style or facial hair style or bright pink hair style. They would not panic at new technology and suggest how evil it is or suggests fasts from the latest tech. They would not panic about new styles of music and say it is of Satan just because they personally don’t like it. Modesty would be taught as principles of moderation rather than lines on the skin or number of earrings.

The church today would have only enough money to be ”sufficient for our needs” because you can buy anything with money, either an end to poverty or land in Florida. They would give all excess tithing to the poor, or education focusing primarily on women because educated women has been proven to be the best thing to fight poverty. Missionaries would be digging wells for clean water rather than knocking on huts to convert people.

The church’s priorities would be different and we would not have to knock doors to find converts because people would come to us because they see what kind of people we are. Instead of focusing on tithing and temples, the church would focus on kindness and charity. Instead of following the prophet, we would teach following Jesus. Instead of teaching the importance of where you marry, they would focus on how you treat your family as what makes marriage and family eternal.

So, the church would have totally different history, totally different scripture, totally different leaders, totally different priorities.

Yeh!...what Alas says here!

[alas]

First of all, there ever would have been hurtful doctrines. So, polygamy would never have been started. Blacks would never have been children of Cain or fence sitters or less valiant in the pre-existence. There never would have been a priesthood or temple ban on blacks. The temple ceremony never would have put women subservient to men, and in fact women would have the priesthood from the time the Relief Society was organized. We would have had about six female prophets and four black and several native Americans. In fact, there would be more than 50% female prophets because on average women live longer, or maybe the position of prophet would be based on merit instead of longevity.

So, historically, we would have had an unrecognizable church........

So, the church would have totally different history, totally different scripture, totally different leaders, totally different priorities.

Thats an interesting thought experiment. It begs to wonder whether a religion being consistent with current social and moral norms is a good way to gage its divinity, or historical goodness. Since morals, ethics, and what we view as “hurtful” is ever moving and evolving, its seems certain that 300 years from now people will find things in our highest moral standards just as hard to justify as we now see the then accepted inequalities of past centuries. Just as we now view most superstitious practices as painfully reminders of their blatant falsehood, in there day these were often what inspired faith and were evidence of Gods involvement.

Well, from my perspective, things that were “acceptable” 300 years ago were STILL hurtful to the people on bottom. So, they were STILL wrong and God didn’t tell anybody to do them. It doesn’t matter if society approves, slavery still hurts slaves, polygamy still hurt the wives, and homophobia still hurt gays. Some people saw that even when others in society didn’t want to see it. I think God disapproved of slavery in Roman times just as much as he does today and would have told any true prophet. I think God did not approve of polygamy back in Abraham’s day any more than he does today. If fact, if you read the Bible, you can see that polygamy hurt the women. Was Leah happily married to Jacob? Hardly. She struggled and struggled for any tiny bit of Jacob’s love. So, do I think Abraham was a true prophet? Um, no. I just don’t think it was God who told Abraham to rape the slave Hagar, to sacrifice his son, or turn his other son out in the desert with nothing but a jug of water and some bread. If Abraham had wanted Hagar and Ishmael to live, he would have sent them with a donkey or two loaded with food and water. Nope, Abraham was no prophet of any God I am willing to worship. I won’t get into the issue of if there has ever been someone besides Jesus Christ that I would accept as a prophet, because the answer might be no.

Just as there were

The question I answered was what the church would look like if it was the true church of Jesus Christ. Not “assuming that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and established the true church, what would the church look like today if it had stayed true?” Somebody else answered that and we would still be living polygamy. And I didn’t answer the question of “if I was to start a church today, would people 100 years from now see all of my choices as moral?” That is the question you answer when you look at how what society approves of has changed over time and wonder what might be moral then.

I just believe the pagan Axiom of do no harm and the golden rule of do unto others as you would have them do unto you are just as true NOW as they were 3,000-4,000 years ago when people came up with them. Some could see that they would not want to be a slave or polygamous wife, so they came up with rules that still apply today. There have ALWAYS been some people in the society that feel slavery is wrong, even if there are others who justify it by thinking some race or sex other than their own is less than human so it is fine to mistreat them. We still have that problem today. It is in the religion I was raised in when they thought blacks were less valiant in the pre-existence, and it is there today with men thinking women are less, and it is there with people thinking being gay is a bad choice that superior them didn’t make.