Elias and Elijah identity problem

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Hagoth
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Re: Elias and Elijah identity problem

Post by Hagoth » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:53 am

jfro18 wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:16 am
On another note... D&C 2 was written in 1838 that proclaimed Elijah would return to restore the priesthood, which was two years after Joseph claimed the visitation happened. Pretty interesting, isn't it?
The introduction to Section 2 dates it to September 21, 1823. Is there evidence that it actually came from a later date?

I do, however, remember reading comments by Joseph Smith after 1836 in which he spoke about the coming of Elijah as a future event, but I didn't save those references (d'oh!)
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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jfro18
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Re: Elias and Elijah identity problem

Post by jfro18 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:16 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:53 am
The introduction to Section 2 dates it to September 21, 1823. Is there evidence that it actually came from a later date?

I do, however, remember reading comments by Joseph Smith after 1836 in which he spoke about the coming of Elijah as a future event, but I didn't save those references (d'oh!)
It was first recorded in 1838 and first appeared publicly in the Times and Season in 1842: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ril-1842/3. So they of course claim it happened in 1823, but it doesn't appear to have been written down until 1838. It just seems amazing how everything that was recorded later lines up with Joseph's evolving theology and fulfilled prophecy that he himself set.

And I saw a few quotes from JS in Nauvoo where he clearly spoke of the coming of Elijah as a future event, but the apologetic response is that it was likely rhetorical, but "also (to) anticipate a culmination that was in the future." If you want to read those pages from the Interpreter, you can use this link and go to around p 266 (this link should dump you around p 261): https://bit.ly/2ukRqSh

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jfro18
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Re: Elias and Elijah identity problem

Post by jfro18 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:29 am

To follow-up on D&C 2, this has a slightly better write-up of the timeline: https://rationalfaiths.com/doctrine-and ... -overview/
Section 2 was first published in the Times and Seasons (April 15, 1842) and was first included in the Doctrine and Covenants in the 1876 edition.

The Smith family had moved from Palmyra to Manchester in 1818. Joseph was living in his parent’s home in Manchester when this revelation was received. This would have been the cabin, not the frame house. The frame house remained unfinished in 1823 so no one would have slept there, unless to relieve congestion. As the header of our 1980 D&C states, this is “An extract from the words of the angel Moroni to Joseph Smith…”

This can also be found in History of the Church 1:12 and in Joseph Smith – History 1:38-39, which was compiled in 1838.
So D&C 2 wasn't in the Book of Commandments, but appeared after Joseph had already decided that Elijah brought him the priesthood keys, fulfilling a prophesy that Joseph Smith prophesied of after the fact.

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Hagoth
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Re: Elias and Elijah identity problem

Post by Hagoth » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:08 pm

Great stuff, jfro!

And if all of this isn't enough, Oliver Cowdery never mentioned this event in his own journal. the last entry for 1836 is March 27 concerning the Kirtland Temple dedication. He talks about seeing a glorious cloud and cloven tongues, and of hearing a rushing wind, but nothing about a visit by Jesus, Moses, Elijah, and Elias a few days later on April 3. Then he skips to the Oct 1839 Nauvoo conference.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Elias and Elijah identity problem

Post by Hagoth » Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:14 pm

MoPag wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:13 am
græy wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:37 am
This whole thread is pure gold! Thank you, everyone for your valuable contributions to our organization. :D
YAASSS^^^^

Also, the Homer Simpson translation of Jesus is Jebus.

Jebus.png
Total derailment here. I went to SM today. The visiting High Councilman asked everyone to close their eyes. He said, "I'm going to say two words and I want you to pay attention to the first thing that comes into your mind. The words were "Jesus Christ." What popped into my head was "Homer Simpson."

Thanks for making my day, MoPag!
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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jfro18
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Re: Elias and Elijah identity problem

Post by jfro18 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:53 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:08 pm
And if all of this isn't enough, Oliver Cowdery never mentioned this event in his own journal. the last entry for 1836 is March 27 concerning the Kirtland Temple dedication. He talks about seeing a glorious cloud and cloven tongues, and of hearing a rushing wind, but nothing about a visit by Jesus, Moses, Elijah, and Elias a few days later on April 3. Then he skips to the Oct 1839 Nauvoo conference.
And this is some serious misdirection by the Joseph Smith Papers:
JS and Cowdery recounted their visions to some associates shortly after they occurred. In a letter to his wife, Sally Waterman Phelps, written on the same day, William W. Phelps stated that JS and Cowdery experienced “a manifestation of the Lord” in which they learned that “the great & terrible day of the Lord as mentioned by Malichi, was near, even at the doors.”
The only footnote is to the WW Phelps letter... so they mention that JS/Cowdery recounted their visions to "some associates," but as far as I can find not a single mention of that can be found outside of the journal entry.

That said, Phelps does mention the Malachi part so it's not as if no one knew about it. To me the main takeaways would be:

1. Joseph Smith claims a visitation from Moses, Elias, and Elijah... Elias and Elijah are the same person and there's no reason to think Joseph Smith knew that.

2. Joseph Smith never recorded the prophesy from Moroni about Elijah returning until AFTER Joseph claimed the vision, which is a pretty big deal.

3. Joseph Smith continued to talk as if the return of Elijah would happen in the future, although the entry by Warren Cowdery would have to be assumed told to him by Joseph. Not quite sure what to make of that.

4. Oliver Cowdery never told anyone of this vision nor did he ever record it in his journal. Seems a life changing even that one would want to dictate, does it now?

Of course there are a lot of assumptions (cue Jim Bennett) you need to make on either side, but I would say the most obvious, rational conclusion is that Joseph Smith was crafting his theology and used his Biblical understanding to craft this vision for authority, and then solidified it by turning it into a prophesy a few years later (think Anthon sealed book type retrofitting). That said... why did he not talk publicly of this vision since it would give him more authority? It was effectively unknown by anyone until after his death, which is really odd.

But after reading through a few apologetic sources, I can't see any reason to think that Joseph knew that Elias and Elijah were the same person, and given that a year earlier Joseph tossed John the Baptist into the priesthood revelation changes, it's hard to believe that Joseph saw Johnthe Baptist in the temple and was unaware of who he was talking with.

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