Connection to Christianity Waning...

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
Arcturus
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Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by Arcturus » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:32 am

Palerider wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:58 am
God doesn't "demand" innocent blood from a reluctant bystander. He, in a very real way offers His own blood on our behalf because He knows how difficult it is here in this existence and in this experience called life. The only "creations" that don't make it back to God are those who love their sins and choose to hate God. It's their decision really. Not His.
I wonder if the idea of blood sacrifice crept into Judaism just like it seems to have had a place in all world theological systems throughout history. In a world with scarce resources, people were brutal to each other, and maybe systematically dishing out revenge for victims (in the form of death for the offender) was the best way to keep people civil and behaved. So what if blood sacrifice is a man-made construct? And consistent with being bound more or less to the tradition of their fathers, early Christians merged this idea into Christ's teaching as well? Hell, look at how early Mormons couldn't even let go of the blood sacrifice idea with BY's blood atonement theology...

Jesus definitely was an outlier for his time, assuming the new testament narrative is correct. I'm open to him being divine and leaving a mark on humanity as to how life should be lived and how you should love and forgive. But atonement theology? Just having a hard time buying it these days. I do believe in sin, but from a lot of what Jesus said it seems like life is hard in that it's the responsibility of the victim to be the bigger person and forgive the perpetrator - which really is a necessary thing for healing and good psychological health. But is there some cosmic scale of justice and mercy and unless the sinner is redeemed, cosmic justice will level the sinner? I really don't think so anymore. That doesn't mean I think everyone should sin. People can suck really bad and be really bad people. Maybe learning how to deal with that (sucky people), forgive people, and help other people not suck so bad is what life is about, and Jesus showed us how to do that?
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin

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Hagoth
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Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by Hagoth » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:14 am

moksha wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:57 am
Before rejoining the former Mormon Church...
That's a story I hope you'll share with us someday.
moksha wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:57 am
Potential Personalized Beliefs

1. We should be good to each other
2. God loves you and me
3. Desire can lead to suffering
4. Moderation in all things
Boy, if everyone could have these in their toolbelt! You have even slipped in a slice of Buddhism.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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MoPag
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Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by MoPag » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:37 am

I say find the Christ narrative that best helps YOU in YOUR life. Take the energy you are currently using to untangle Christianity and use it redefine Christ in a way that will empower you.

I'm still trying to figure out how Christ works in my life. I still have a lot of deprograming to do. When I started on my Pagan path I was really surprised -and happy- to find that many, many, Pagans and Wiccans have a deep love for Christ and his teachings. Most see Christ as someone who ascended to a higher level of consciousness. Christ's teachings (not Paul's interpretations of his teachings) can help us live a better life.

Right now I embrace the idea of Christ as something dynamic that can work for many different people in different ways; some good some bad.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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RubinHighlander
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Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:11 am

Arcturus wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:48 pm
However, I now feel like I’m drifting away from Christianity as well. I believe there’s a loving God out there, but I think this can be the case independent of Christianity.
This was me a few years ago, thinking I might try to just get back to some bible basics with Jesus. But the critical thinking continued and it was not hard to see all the flaws in the bible and all other Christian religions. Like the BOM, the other scriptures fall apart, all philosophies of men, evolving out of tribalism and pseudoscience. I found some more altruistic beliefs in Buddha, but really, I'd finally had enough of it all. I was able to replace all of my personal metaphysical/spiritual experiences with nature, getting out to the desert, mountains, lakes, just getting outside and it's been more fulfilling that any of my past 40 years believing in the man-made bull$hit!

I found that good is good and bad is bad and life is just life and it does not need to be attributed to anything supernatural; no more flying spaghetti monsters, no more angles or devils or bipolar gods. No human or living thing on this planet is more special than the other one, at least not by any religious dogmatic view IMO. It's been so refreshing just to marvel at nature and scientific discovery and it's purity, without any religious BS hanging over my head. It took a while to get to a place of peace in an agnostic/atheist world, but for me it turned out so much better than anything I've had before.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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Red Ryder
Posts: 4144
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:14 pm

Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:21 am

MoPag wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:37 am
I say find the Christ narrative that best helps YOU in YOUR life. Take the energy you are currently using to untangle Christianity and use it redefine Christ in a way that will empower you.

I'm still trying to figure out how Christ works in my life. I still have a lot of deprograming to do. When I started on my Pagan path I was really surprised -and happy- to find that many, many, Pagans and Wiccans have a deep love for Christ and his teachings. Most see Christ as someone who ascended to a higher level of consciousness. Christ's teachings (not Paul's interpretations of his teachings) can help us live a better life.

Right now I embrace the idea of Christ as something dynamic that can work for many different people in different ways; some good some bad.
This is great advice!

For me it's 2 things. Christmas and living the golden rule.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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Red Ryder
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Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:23 am

RubinHighlander wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:11 am
Arcturus wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:48 pm
However, I now feel like I’m drifting away from Christianity as well. I believe there’s a loving God out there, but I think this can be the case independent of Christianity.
This was me a few years ago, thinking I might try to just get back to some bible basics with Jesus. But the critical thinking continued and it was not hard to see all the flaws in the bible and all other Christian religions. Like the BOM, the other scriptures fall apart, all philosophies of men, evolving out of tribalism and pseudoscience. I found some more altruistic beliefs in Buddha, but really, I'd finally had enough of it all. I was able to replace all of my personal metaphysical/spiritual experiences with nature, getting out to the desert, mountains, lakes, just getting outside and it's been more fulfilling that any of my past 40 years believing in the man-made bull$hit!

I found that good is good and bad is bad and life is just life and it does not need to be attributed to anything supernatural; no more flying spaghetti monsters, no more angles or devils or bipolar gods. No human or living thing on this planet is more special than the other one, at least not by any religious dogmatic view IMO. It's been so refreshing just to marvel at nature and scientific discovery and it's purity, without any religious BS hanging over my head. It took a while to get to a place of peace in an agnostic/atheist world, but for me it turned out so much better than anything I've had before.
This pretty much describes my position as well.
Apathetic agnostic in tune with nature!
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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moksha
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Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by moksha » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:15 pm

Arcturus wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:32 am
I wonder if the idea of blood sacrifice crept into Judaism just like it seems to have had a place in all world theological systems throughout history.
Perhaps it was whispered to them by Cthulhu...

Image
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Wonderment
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Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:38 pm

Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by Wonderment » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:08 am

Bishop Spong is a very articulate theologian with a very solid grasp on the New Testament. I have
his book "Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalism", and it is a powerful treatise on how fundamentalists ( and Calvinists) misinterpret scripture.
From a fairly early age, I was skeptical about the belief of "original sin." How can one "inherit" sin through genetics, especially from an ancestor who lived millions of years ago ( if he existed at all) ? That made no sense to me as a child, and it still makes no sense. Adam and Eve sinned; therefore, little babies who are born are also sinners and need to have the sin washed off them? That does not compute, as Bishop Spong points out.

Hagoth speaks of avoiding "high demand" churches, and that is my preference also.

Continue to read or listen to Bishop Spong. I think he's on the right track, and his work is very meaningful. -- Wndr.

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