Connection to Christianity Waning...

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
Arcturus
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Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by Arcturus » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:48 pm

I’ve been listening to a lot of Bishop John Shelby Spong recently, and most everything he says resonates with me.

I’m a dad and I have kids. I love them more than anything. The moment they were born they felt like they were a part of me. I don’t think I could ever hate them or abandon them no matter what they do. If I feel this way, how could a God-father entity hate creation once they sin and demand innocent blood for redemption to occur? What kind of God is this? Why do human beings suck according to the predominant Judeo-Christian narrative? The older I get the more and more I disagree with this and I see more and more beauty in people and in the world.

Judeo-Christian theology doesn’t make any sense to me anymore. Atonement theology doesn’t make sense. Sin, fallenness, need for redemption - it doesn’t make sense! If you listen to or have read Spong at all you’ll know what I mean.

I’m gone, like past the point of return with Mormonism. However, I now feel like I’m drifting away from Christianity as well. I believe there’s a loving God out there, but I think this can be the case independent of Christianity.

Any thoughts on this? Any compelling books or theologians that keep you holding onto Christ? I feel like God has touched my life and continues to, but I also see an avenue that there can be a loving God doing that and it’s not dependent on Christianity being true...
Last edited by Arcturus on Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
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Palerider
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Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by Palerider » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:58 am

Arcturus wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:48 pm
I’ve been listening to a lot of Bishop Shelby Spong recently, and most everything he says resonates with me.

I’m a dad and I have kids. I love them more than anything. The moment they were born they felt like they were a part of me. I don’t think I could ever hate them or abandon them no matter what they do. If I feel this way, how could a God-father entity hate creation once they sin and demand innocent blood for redemption to occur? What kind of God is this? Why do human beings suck according to the predominant Judeo-Christian narrative? The older I get the more and more I disagree with this and I see more and more beauty in people and in the world.

Judeo-Christian theology doesn’t make any sense to me anymore. Atonement theology doesn’t make sense. Sin, fallenness, need for redemption - it doesn’t make sense! If you listen to or have read Spong at all you’ll know what I mean.

I’m gone, like past the point of return with Mormonism. However, I now feel like I’m drifting away from Christianity as well. I believe there’s a loving God out there, but I think this can be the case independent of Christianity.

Any thoughts on this? Any compelling books or theologians that keep you holding onto Christ? I feel like God has touched my life and continues to, but I also see an avenue that there can be a loving God doing that and it’s not dependent on Christianity being true...
Haven't read or even heard of Spong.

If I were ever to leave Christianity this would be the direction I would go.

Wondering how old your kids are?

Mine are all married now. Some for the second time. One in particular gave me and my wife excruciating pain. I never stopped loving this child but the relationship definitely changed and we weren't friends any longer. For quite awhile.

During that time it was so painful, sometimes I just wanted to not be around this child. I didn't hate them I just hurt really badly when they were there.

The really sad part was it was all so unnecessary. But some kids have to learn the hard way. I get that. But that doesn't mean I have to or am supposed to accept and embrace what they're doing. I didn't hate this child but we had a fundamental disagreement on principle.

They're doing better now but this child will pay the price for the rest of their life. In most cases it was not a matter of "mistakes", it was a matter of arrogance. I hate to say it but this child really thought they were hot crap and nobody could tell them anything.

Kind of like that story of the kid that thinks his parents are idiots as he goes of to college and then when he returns he's surprised how much his parents learned while he was away.

Only this was much worse.

And I know I wasn't a perfect parent, as God is but there were and are times when I would wish to God that I could pay the price of my child's arrogance to atone for the errors I might have made as a parent in raising them.

Sin is such a double edged sword. It hurts everyone involved.

Mistakes? God is pretty gentle on those. And on sin as well if we finally learn from it and look to reconcile with Him. When we've had enough of a crappy life style and begin to hunger and thirst after righteousness.

God doesn't "demand" innocent blood from a reluctant bystander. He, in a very real way offers His own blood on our behalf because He knows how difficult it is here in this existence and in this experience called life. The only "creations" that don't make it back to God are those who love their sins and choose to hate God. It's their decision really. Not His.

And I try not to put myself in the place of judging who those people are for the most part. I think most of us will be surprised how far God's Grace extends according to the circumstances and environment we were born into in this life and what choices were available to us.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Dravin
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Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by Dravin » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:29 am

I lost Christianity when I lost Mormonism. The things that were telling me that Joseph Smith was a prophet were the same things telling me Jesus was the Christ. Once you stop operating from the starting assumption of Jesus being the Christ then Christianity just sort of naturally breaks down because the theology of Christianity uses him both as a focus and a justification for itself.
Hindsight is all well and good... until you trip.

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Hagoth
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Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by Hagoth » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:48 am

Palerider wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:58 am
Mistakes? God is pretty gentle on those.
Unless, like most of Christianity, you believe in eternal consequences.

But I agree, a loving God would be pretty gentle on those. He would be the ultimate expert at sympathizing with you through your boneheaded blunders and helping you to clearly see how you messed up and how you can do better, so you can avoid hitting the same roadblocks again. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening. If God could give us even the slightest undeniable communication, like an occasional fortune cookie in a meteorite, or a message in a temporary tattoo He would sure save a lot of people from unnecessary of anguish, and a lot fewer innocents would suffer.

I know, I know, that's what the Bible and modern-day prophets are for. Too bad the message is too cryptic for anyone to agree what it is.

If God is all-powerful, and if He really cares, I for one would like to ask Him if He could maybe he could work on His communication skills. If God isn't willing to break the silence just a tiny bit I certainly hope He is planning to be extremely gentle on our mistakes.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by Hagoth » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:51 am

Dravin wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:29 am
The things that were telling me that Joseph Smith was a prophet were the same things telling me Jesus was the Christ.
I lost Satan, King Arthur, and Robin Hood in the same way. And Santa Clause, come to think of it. I still kinda love Santa Clause, and I still live by many of the words of Jesus.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Dravin
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Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by Dravin » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:01 am

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:51 am
I lost Satan, King Arthur, and Robin Hood in the same way. And Santa Clause, come to think of it. I still kinda love Santa Clause, and I still live by many of the words of Jesus.
Nothing wrong with having a fondness for fictional characters or for finding value in the words and actions attributed to them.
Hindsight is all well and good... until you trip.

Arcturus
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Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by Arcturus » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:45 am

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:48 am
If God is all-powerful, and if He really cares, I for one would like to ask Him if He could maybe he could work on His communication skills.
I try and look at things as objectively as I can, and I try and take the Occam's Razor approach in explaining life phenomena. Looking back to my TBM days, most of my presumed spiritual experiences can be chalked up to a number of different alternative explanations. However, I had a formidable experience in my youth that removed me from a forthcoming calamity. As best I can describe, it was an outside voice commanding me to go, and I had no agency on the matter - almost like something took over my judgment and I went into auto-pilot. It involved me moving out of my family's home into the home of some relatives who were states away, and it was in my senior year of high school. I had friends, was a star athlete, was popular, was loving my life, and had to reset all that by moving away. I didn't understand everything as it was happening, just moved forward. And then about 6 months later, the nuclear bomb dropped and I realized why God had moved me.

I see no alternative explanation for that. I often think about the counterfactual if I had stayed and been at ground zero when the s*** hit the fan. But then I also think that I'm not unique in experiencing this thing, and if God moved me, why doesn't God move other people and "save" others from terrible experiences? I don't know.

I believe in a loving God who is distant from us by design. I think this life is meant to be handled alone, for learning and growing etc. I think God intervenes here and there, but they are rare occasions.

I feel more torn about departing my faith in Christianity than I did stepping away from Mormonism. When I left Mormonism, I had a strong yet nuanced view of Christianity. But like you said Dravin, Christianity unravels just like Mormonism after deeper inspection.
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin

Arcturus
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Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by Arcturus » Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:13 am

Palerider wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:58 am

Wondering how old your kids are?

Mine are all married now. Some for the second time. One in particular gave me and my wife excruciating pain. I never stopped loving this child but the relationship definitely changed and we weren't friends any longer. For quite awhile.

During that time it was so painful, sometimes I just wanted to not be around this child. I didn't hate them I just hurt really badly when they were there.
My kids are pretty young, still in the innocent stage.

My DW and I were in the same ward as Lori Hacking's in-laws at one point. It was very interesting to observe them in the ward, and whenever they stood up for testimony meeting, etc. there was an incredible depth to their comments. I remember on one Sunday sister Hacking talked about her son, and the love she feels for him, and all she's learned going through this experience. Talk about powerful, and something I hope I never have to go through. But the small glimpses they gave the ward into the window of their life experience gave me some insight that maybe this represents, to a small degree, how God feels about all of us.

I still don't see the need for innocent blood to be shed in all of this. Why can't God forgive because he's God? Why does God's own blood need to be shed for redemption to occur? If God's forgiveness is incomparable to man's, then why can't God forgive just as brother and sister Hacking have forgiven their son? Can God's love be greater than any "eternal justice" that demands the sinner to be damned?

I also think that the whole mercy and justice thing is a social construct injected into Judeo-Christian theology. And hundreds and thousands of years ago when resources were scarce and human beings were brutal to each other, this system definitely helped keep some order and facilitated civility. And what helped it be even more penetrating to people was the idea that it was coming from God.
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin

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Corsair
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Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by Corsair » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:14 pm

Arcturus wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:13 am
I still don't see the need for innocent blood to be shed in all of this. Why can't God forgive because he's God? Why does God's own blood need to be shed for redemption to occur? If God's forgiveness is incomparable to man's, then why can't God forgive just as brother and sister Hacking have forgiven their son? Can God's love be greater than any "eternal justice" that demands the sinner to be damned?

I also think that the whole mercy and justice thing is a social construct injected into Judeo-Christian theology. And hundreds and thousands of years ago when resources were scarce and human beings were brutal to each other, this system definitely helped keep some order and facilitated civility. And what helped it be even more penetrating to people was the idea that it was coming from God.
It seems that the teachings of the atonement have historically concentrated on this kind of divine retribution rather than the love and forgiveness of God. Under the assumption that Christianity is "true" in some way, I suspect the the actual mechanism of the atonement will be customized for each individual. The usual teachings of the atonement from institutional churches tend to not want to emphasize God's forgiveness. That might give either heretics or the truly depraved any easy way out that might not involve the institutional church.

Under the assumption that Christianity is entirely man-made, I also note that the teachings of the New Testament have been historically successful at keeping people in line for both good and bad purposes. Civilization needs people to follow rules and work together. Concepts of sin, punishment, and forgiveness are useful concepts that religion has provided.

I suppose we are left with the question of what to do about Christianity. I suspect that anyone who registers for this board is suffering from some kind of Mormon church induced religious PTSD. We simply want to take a break from high demand religions. Is connection to a different church a net benefit in our lives? Can we still be practising Christians yet not attend a church? Is there sufficient reason to retain some kind of real belief in Christianity?

Arcturus
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Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by Arcturus » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:41 pm

Corsair wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:14 pm
I suppose we are left with the question of what to do about Christianity. I suspect that anyone who registers for this board is suffering from some kind of Mormon church induced religious PTSD. We simply want to take a break from high demand religions. Is connection to a different church a net benefit in our lives? Can we still be practising Christians yet not attend a church? Is there sufficient reason to retain some kind of real belief in Christianity?
This is exactly where I'm at Corsair. And I'd love to hear peoples' thoughts on these points.
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin

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Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by Kishkumen » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:17 pm

I'm somewhere between agnostic and atheist. Trying to find some divine influence or existence in the universe is too exhausting. The reality i have to deal with already takes more time than I have.

I joined a newsletter for The Satanic Temple - Arizona Chapter. They do some cool stuff. The atheist satanists are kinda cool. The literal satanists and too much.

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Hagoth
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Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by Hagoth » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:25 pm

Corsair wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:14 pm
Is there sufficient reason to retain some kind of real belief in Christianity?
Does it:

a) make you a better person? (I mean really, truly better, not just the better-because-I'm-a-Christian thing)
b) make you happier than life as a non-Christian?

If the answer to both of those questions is yeas then I see no reason to walk away. But if it interferes with an internal compass that would make you a better and happier person, maybe not.

Last of all, you have to answer the question what is a Christian and whose interpretation is correct? Good luck with that one. Now, if your internal compass is Christian by nature then you should follow that and ignore what any church says. BTW, some of the best "Christians" I have known, based on their actions, were atheists.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by wtfluff » Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:43 pm

My belief in any sort of interventionist, loving "heavenly parent" (and thus my belief in Christianity) crumbled to dust in the middle of teaching 12-year-old's about the "Plan of Happiness."

One of those fleeting little light-bulb moments when I realized: I'm nowhere near the perfect parent, but I could never fathom treating my children the way "God" treats us.

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Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by Reuben » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:45 pm

If you drop the need for the atonement to be literal and historical, you might find yourself happy with Christianity.

So you know where I'm coming from, I self-identify as a Christian agnostic atheist. I usually leave off the word "atheist" because it confuses people.

I regard grace as regulatory and subversive.

Some people are highly sensitive to making errors. Others are highly sensitive to disgust. We need these people: they order our lives and keep our communities tight. When their neuroses become social norms, however, everyone feels as threatened and filthy as they do. Shame becomes the primary form of emotional and behavioral regulation. Authoritarianism wins. Lines are drawn between "us" and "them." Arbitrary tribal markers become commandments. Individuals are swallowed by the group, and are sometimes chewed up and spit out.

That's what happened to the Pharisees, and is what's happened to Mormonism. It happens everywhere, and not just to religions.

So along comes God himself, the infinitely tippy-top of the social hierarchy. He heals the people who have been chewed up and spit out. He rails against making tribal markers into commandments. He pointedly sits with "them," and calls "them" his friends. He cuts the authorities down to size and insists that they step down from their thrones like he did.

And then, for the coup de grace, he takes away everyone's shame.

When grace takes hold in a person, it acts as an emotional regulator. It doesn't matter what people think of you if you know that God himself calls you his friend. You're free from judgment and shame. You're free to think and act according to truth and goodness without agonizing over your self-worth or eternal fate. And if enough people think like you do, it helps pull your group away from an institutional OCD spiral. It's subversive. It's genius.

I think the people who need to believe in the atonement the most are the ones who already feel threatened and dirty, and are likely to attribute those feelings to God's judgment or submit to a human authority to cope. I used to, when Mormonism was still a part of me. My wife and kids have, and probably would no matter what. So in my house we teach grace.

For me, it's allegorical now. I extend the same grace to others that my favorite superhero Jesus extended to everyone. Sometimes the rewards are great. Paradoxically, my freedom to think according to the truth - which finding grace had a lot to do with - once led to my Mormon identity, belief in God, and standing within Mormonism all being nailed to a cross. It turns out I didn't need them.

But I still love the concept of grace.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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Palerider
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Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by Palerider » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:48 pm

Arcturus wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:13 am

My DW and I were in the same ward as Lori Hacking's in-laws at one point.
I'm sorry, I don't live in the Morcor and I'm unfamiliar with the Hacking issue. Could you update me?
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Evil_Bert
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Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by Evil_Bert » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:50 pm

Lori Hacking was killed by her husband in 2004.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lori_Hacking
Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Palerider
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Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by Palerider » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:00 pm

Evil_Bert wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:50 pm
Lori Hacking was killed by her husband in 2004.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lori_Hacking
Thanks for the info. It doesn't get much worse than this.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Culper Jr.
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Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by Culper Jr. » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:15 pm

I tried to go the route for a while of seeing the atonement, or Christ's suffering as a way for Christ to know us and understand how to help us to become better. But really the New Testament is all over the place doctrinally; enough so that people can make Jesus into whatever they want. I recently read The Evolution of God by Robert Wright which pretty much killed any remotely literal belief I had in anything scriptural. I realized I was just making up beliefs about Christ that were partially supported by scripture that had been retconned over and over. I figured why go to all the trouble to force fit Christ into a complicated narrative about how I should live life when I could just reason a simple one out myself?

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Hagoth
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Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by Hagoth » Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:56 am

Reuben wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:45 pm
When grace takes hold in a person, it acts as an emotional regulator. It doesn't matter what people think of you if you know that God himself calls you his friend
I like this but the problem is that God has done a pretty sh!tty job of communicating that to people who really need it. That line of communication seems equally inaccessible from the gutter and the high red velvet seats.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: Connection to Christianity Waning...

Post by moksha » Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:57 am

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:48 am
Unless, like most of Christianity, you believe in eternal consequences.
There are a number of Christian Churches that speak of a loving God.

Nothing is preventing us from holding more Christian views than the Brethren. Before rejoining the former Mormon Church I subscribed to a progressive Christian school of thought. I still do. A belief system that is personalized and meaningful to us can help make us better people and provide comfort when we need it.

Potential Personalized Beliefs

1. We should be good to each other
2. God loves you and me
3. Desire can lead to suffering
4. Moderation in all things
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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