Polygamy and later sexual repression

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: Polygamy and later sexual repression

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:55 am

Cnsl1 wrote:I watched a couple of episodes of the Netflix documentary 3 wives about a polygamist group near Moab, Utah. I'm not sure how accurately it portrays their lives, but there are some interesting dynamics.

First, it seems like wife#1 in both family groups that are featured is the woman that is most secure and stable, and the one that seems the most supportive of the polygamy arrangement. It's the second wife that seems to have the hardest time. It should be noted that these modern polygamist relationships are likely much different than what was going on in the 1800's, and part of that is due to the influence of our broader culture. The dynamics between men and women are just much different now. As an example, in one family, they profess belief in polygamy but do not practice it... Yet. During interviews, it seems pretty evident that the husband wants to, but that the wife wears the pants and has decided the time isn't right. You get the distinct feeling that it's never gonna be the right time because wife just really doesn't want it.

To reference an earlier question, I do remember reading multiple quotes from church leaders at the time of polygamy offering conjectures as to why it was so good.. like monogamy caused the fall of Rome, and was the reason there was sexual sin and prostitutes, etc. Basically saying men can't keep it in their pants and one woman isn't nearly enough.
Great show, I was especially entertained by the fact they wore lots of clothes from BYU.

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Re: Polygamy and later sexual repression

Post by Rob4Hope » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:46 am

Cnsl1 wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:23 am
Basically saying men can't keep it in their pants and one woman isn't nearly enough.
I confess I used to believe some of this. Then when I got out of the church, I made a LOT Of friends, some women who were also divorced, and SHOCK SHOCK SHOCK....you know I discovered that there were actually some women out there who liked sex? .... women who actually wanted MORE sex? .... women who were frustrated because their husband wasn't putting out very much and was, himself, acting like there was no life in him over this?

The idea that one woman isn't enough [sexually] is a misogynistic lie. It sets up the false dichotomy of primadona or whore, which the church is all to fond of continuing today. Namely: If you are spiritual as a woman, you are NOT sexual. And if you are sexual as a woman, you are NOT spiritual.

Jennifer Finlayson Fife saw ample evidence of this during her dissertation, and I've seen evidence in my own studies as well as writing of other LDS authors like Laura Brotherson and more.

Very destructive lie.

PS. Wendy Watson's book Purity and Passion -- the little I've read -- creeps me out! It tries to merge the primadona/sexual woman (whore may be too strong here) into one. But it is creepy how it takes the fun out of it! Reading some of her lists makes me thing that sexuality requires fasting, prayer, deep spiritual meditation, ample and exhaustive scripture reading, and a whole bunch of other "spiritual preparation" for the sexuality to be enhanced as god would have it.

Its like the church wrestles over and over with the idea of just getting it on because its HOT and FUN! The whole puritanical 'mordification of the flesh' idea permeates, IMHO, this whole topic in LDS land.

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Re: Polygamy and later sexual repression

Post by alas » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:05 pm

Cnsl1 wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:23 am
I watched a couple of episodes of the Netflix documentary 3 wives about a polygamist group near Moab, Utah. I'm not sure how accurately it portrays their lives, but there are some interesting dynamics.

First, it seems like wife#1 in both family groups that are featured is the woman that is most secure and stable, and the one that seems the most supportive of the polygamy arrangement. It's the second wife that seems to have the hardest time. It should be noted that these modern polygamist relationships are likely much different than what was going on in the 1800's, and part of that is due to the influence of our broader culture. The dynamics between men and women are just much different now. As an example, in one family, they profess belief in polygamy but do not practice it... Yet. During interviews, it seems pretty evident that the husband wants to, but that the wife wears the pants and has decided the time isn't right. You get the distinct feeling that it's never gonna be the right time because wife just really doesn't want it.

To reference an earlier question, I do remember reading multiple quotes from church leaders at the time of polygamy offering conjectures as to why it was so good.. like monogamy caused the fall of Rome, and was the reason there was sexual sin and prostitutes, etc. Basically saying men can't keep it in their pants and one woman isn't nearly enough.
I think the modern polygamist have to keep the women happy or they leave, unlike the BY version where women who tried to escape were “blood atoned” shortly after leaving the state.

I base this on a friend of mine who grew up in one of the current polygamous communities. Not Warren Jeffs, but one that broke away from Jeff’s while it was still under Warren’s father. He says that all wives have to agree that a certain woman is a good fit for the family and that the men have little choice in picking women. The woman who is of marriageable age decides who she wants to marry and then kind of applies for the job. The man and all wives have to agree. He says there was one case in his family that one of his mothers was not getting along with the others and the women voted her out of the family. The husband wanted to keep her, but could not go against his wives. He says the women are not pressured to marry, but I suspect he just was not seeing that part. He still believes in polygamy but his wife doesn’t want to live that way, and so he is monogamous. It is interesting to get his inside view of things and how he says it is a really good system the way his group practiced it. He says he appreciates his mothers and is still very close to not only his biological mother but several of the others who helped raise him. He says he kind of envies his older brothers who got more time with Dad, before dad was too old to do things boys like and how by the time he came along there were too many children for him to get much individual time with his dad.

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Re: Polygamy and later sexual repression

Post by slavereeno » Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:00 pm

I still don't get the polygamy thing as it relates to population sizes. In the absence of men killing each other off at a high rate, the populations of male and female are basically equal. Doesn't polygamy end up with an excess of unmarried men roaming around? or the women progressively getting married younger and younger? How can that be sustained?

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Re: Polygamy and later sexual repression

Post by Reuben » Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:16 pm

slavereeno wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:00 pm
I still don't get the polygamy thing as it relates to population sizes. In the absence of men killing each other off at a high rate, the populations of male and female are basically equal. Doesn't polygamy end up with an excess of unmarried men roaming around? or the women progressively getting married younger and younger? How can that be sustained?
It tends to lead to a lot of civil unrest and killing if too many men are doing it. (I don't have a source handy.) Imagine half the male population being incels.
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Re: Polygamy and later sexual repression

Post by wtfluff » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:36 pm

slavereeno wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:00 pm
I still don't get the polygamy thing as it relates to population sizes. In the absence of men killing each other off at a high rate, the populations of male and female are basically equal. Doesn't polygamy end up with an excess of unmarried men roaming around? or the women progressively getting married younger and younger? How can that be sustained?
Yes. This is pretty much the story of early mormonism, and the current FLDS church. Wasn't there a post here on NOM about the "Pedogamy" research that has recently been done? Ever heard of the "Lost Boys" related to FLDS and other current polygamist sects?

Also, I believe if you look at recorded history as far as keeping track of birth rates, there are slightly more females born than males. Look at that rate related to the buh-zillions of humans who have ever lived on the earth, and compare that to the number of actual baptized mormons. There are buh-zillions of people who "never had the opportunity to hear of the gospel in this life" who get a free ticket to super VIP heaven, which means, if you really believe mormon doctrine, there will be more women in the celestial kingdom than men. So... How does that polygamy thing work in the afterlife? Looks like the women are actually going to have multiple husbands.

[S] Stupid statistics. [/S]


EDIT: My paragraph about birth rates, etc. is all logically twisted up. See alas and my replies later in the thread to hopefully straighten things out...
Last edited by wtfluff on Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Polygamy and later sexual repression

Post by Cnsl1 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:01 am

Re: Wendy Watson's book, Purity and passion. Ha! My wife bought it years ago. I read it. It's caca. written by a woman who at the time was never married. She has written other books as well, and none, unless I'm very much mistaken, have received much praise. Most people in the psych and marriage relationship fields think they're bad at best, destructive at worst. I've never met the woman... Maybe she's great, but based on what I've seen from her books and talks, I'm not a fan.

Getting off the Aunt Wendy rant, and trying to bring the discussion back on topic... Or at least partially on topic...

Another thing I noticed with the 3 Wives program is that the second wife seemed to have the most emotional trouble, jealousy, etc. Adding another wife was put to a family vote, even the kids were included and the husband talked about "us" marrying the new girl. I thought it was interesting how the potential new wife talked about how she wanted to be a plural wife and not the first wife because it was easier to find a good guy once you could see how he was with other wives. It's a completely different mindset, that's for sure.

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Re: Polygamy and later sexual repression

Post by alas » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:50 am

wtfluff wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:36 pm
slavereeno wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:00 pm
I still don't get the polygamy thing as it relates to population sizes. In the absence of men killing each other off at a high rate, the populations of male and female are basically equal. Doesn't polygamy end up with an excess of unmarried men roaming around? or the women progressively getting married younger and younger? How can that be sustained?
Yes. This is pretty much the story of early mormonism, and the current FLDS church. Wasn't there a post here on NOM about the "Pedogamy" research that has recently been done? Ever heard of the "Lost Boys" related to FLDS and other current polygamist sects?

Also, I believe if you look at recorded history as far as keeping track of birth rates, there are slightly more females born than males. Look at that rate related to the buh-zillions of humans who have ever lived on the earth, and compare that to the number of actual baptized mormons. There are buh-zillions of people who "never had the opportunity to hear of the gospel in this life" who get a free ticket to super VIP heaven, which means, if you really believe mormon doctrine, there will be more women in the celestial kingdom than men. So... How does that polygamy thing work in the afterlife? Looks like the women are actually going to have multiple husbands.

[S] Stupid statistics. [/S]
I don’t know if you just wrote it down backwards or have it in your head backwards, but more males are born than females. There are 104 boys born to 96 girl babies. So, the ratio in the CK will be skewed toward more boys because more of them die before 8 as well as more being born. So, evening things out by reproductive age, more male babies die before the age of five, making the sexes about even. Then the men go off to war, and that skews things toward more women, but then the women die in child birth, evening things out again, but then the men die at 50 of heart attack, leaving more older women. And the older women were the wise women of the tribe. But all of that is before women went into combat and we had modern medicine saving most mothers from dying in child birth. Before modern medicine, about 1 in 6 women died in child birth, so without war, there were not enough women of child baring age. Polygamy acted a birth control in those populations who practiced it. Mostly limited land areas where the population needed to be kept at a certain size, deserts and islands kind of places. And because resources were so limited, there was also a lot of inter tribal warfare.

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Re: Polygamy and later sexual repression

Post by wtfluff » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:17 pm

alas wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:50 am
I don’t know if you just wrote it down backwards or have it in your head backwards, but more males are born than females. There are 104 boys born to 96 girl babies. So, the ratio in the CK will be skewed toward more boys because more of them die before 8 as well as more being born. So, evening things out by reproductive age, more male babies die before the age of five, making the sexes about even. Then the men go off to war, and that skews things toward more women, but then the women die in child birth, evening things out again, but then the men die at 50 of heart attack, leaving more older women. And the older women were the wise women of the tribe. But all of that is before women went into combat and we had modern medicine saving most mothers from dying in child birth. Before modern medicine, about 1 in 6 women died in child birth, so without war, there were not enough women of child baring age. Polygamy acted a birth control in those populations who practiced it. Mostly limited land areas where the population needed to be kept at a certain size, deserts and islands kind of places. And because resources were so limited, there was also a lot of inter tribal warfare.
You're right Alas, my last paragraph above is all logically twisted backwards, and I did have the sex ratio at birth mixed up, which twisted everything else in my tiny brain. Just going with the sex ratio at birth with more males born than females means there will be more males in super VIP heaven than women. And like you mentioned: Add to that the death rates of more males than females dying before the "age of accountability" skews the afterlife statistics even worse (more males than females.)

So... Unless the mormon belief that there are way more righteous females than males, is "true," polygamy (or more specifically polygyny) just can't work out in the afterlife. The way more righteous females thing would have to extremely skewed. So... What happens to the "lost boys" in super VIP heaven? Again: Stupid statistics.

Setting all of the fancy statistics mentioned above aside: The male/female ratio didn't work out with early mormon polygyny. It doesn't work out with current cultures practicing polygyny BUT... For some strange reason it will work out in the afterlife? Oh yeah, I forgot: Elohim Misogyny Magic will fix everything!
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Brilliant.

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Re: Polygamy and later sexual repression

Post by Rob4Hope » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:04 am

Most of Joseph Smith’s wives had difficult lives, but Louisa stands out even among them. The mother of five children by Brigham Young, including two sets of twins, she lost them all and then died of breast cancer in early middle age– thus becoming the mater dolorosa of early Mormon polygamy.

Compton, Todd M.. In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith (Kindle Locations 1690-1693). Signature Books. Kindle Edition.
Knowing how Brigham Young treated his wives, I wonder how Louisa felt about having children to that guy. A mean tyrant, grissley man who commanded--nay, DEMANDED--respect and deference from his followers, treated his wives like chattle, and fathered children to them.
If Louisa’s case is similar to Almera Johnson’s, Noble may have introduced the doctrine to her before Smith did. Whoever taught her the principle, she had to be converted to it, according to Brigham Young family tradition: “Sister Louisa asked the Lord in fervent prayer for a testimony concerning the principle. The Lord heard her supplication and granted her request, and after being convinced that the principle had emanated from God, she accepted it, and was married to the Prophet Joseph Smith.”

Compton, Todd M.. In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith (Kindle Locations 1762-1765). Signature Books. Kindle Edition.
I didn't know until a few years ago the back-editing and retrospective tampering with histories that the LDS church has employed since its foundation. For example, there are thousands of changes to the BoM, and also historical date changes and edits to the D&C.

Does anyone know if there was tampering with some of this history above,...dealing with plural wives?

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Re: Polygamy and later sexual repression

Post by Rob4Hope » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:33 am

That Young (the president and prophet of the church) would send a carriage to take three women to administer to another is a striking contrast to modern-day Mormon practice, in which only men are allowed to perform administrations for health.

Compton, Todd M.. In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith (Kindle Locations 1960-1962). Signature Books. Kindle Edition.
This whole chapter was filled with references of women administering--as in blessing each other with laid on hands--to the sick. This quote captures some of the historical character of the time in that Brigham Young allowed and even aided the practice. How things changed is something I would like to learn more about. But it does lend credence to misogynistic tendencies creeping in in other areas besides the chattle aspects of polygamy.

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Re: Polygamy and later sexual repression

Post by Rob4Hope » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:50 am

On February 2, 1846, in an inner room in the Nauvoo temple, Zina Huntington Jacobs stood by the side of Brigham Young, presiding apostle and de facto president of the Mormon church. Near Young was Heber C. Kimball, his first counselor. Somewhat apart stood Henry B. Jacobs, whom Zina had married in a civil ceremony in March 1841. She was now seven months pregnant with their second child, who would be named Henry Chariton Jacobs. That Henry Bailey was inside the temple shows that he was considered a faithful, worthy Latter-day Saint. Zina and Brigham turned toward each other and Kimball sealed (married) Zina to Joseph Smith for eternity; Brigham stood proxy for the dead prophet, answering in his stead when the ceremony required a response. Henry, with Zina’s father, William Huntington, and John D. Lee, stood as witnesses for the ritual, while Franklin D. Richards clerked. Then, as was customary in temple proxy marriages, Zina and Brigham turned to each other and were sealed to each other for time. Once again Henry stood as witness.

Compton, Todd M.. In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith (Kindle Locations 2013-2021). Signature Books. Kindle Edition.
The sacrifice of Henry Jacobs...who had a child. And the sacrifice of Zina who's salvation was held in the balance.

I HATE BRIGHAM YOUNG! HE IS A PIECE OF VILE PUTRID SH!T!

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Re: Polygamy and later sexual repression

Post by Rob4Hope » Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:06 am

Alas,....

After reading the Zina Huntington part, I see and accept your position about how amassing power was part of JS approach. Zina was one of the most "spiritual" women of the era. She prophesied and was a BIG TIME tongues speaker. She was noted for that. She was respected for that. In fact, she was known to administer by Laying on of Hands and even cause healings. For this prize to get away from Joe was something he couldn't allow. The power had to be centralized.

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Re: Polygamy and later sexual repression

Post by alas » Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:41 am

Rob4Hope wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:06 am
Alas,....

After reading the Zina Huntington part, I see and accept your position about how amassing power was part of JS approach. Zina was one of the most "spiritual" women of the era. She prophesied and was a BIG TIME tongues speaker. She was noted for that. She was respected for that. In fact, she was known to administer by Laying on of Hands and even cause healings. For this prize to get away from Joe was something he couldn't allow. The power had to be centralized.
Yes, and if you find a picture of her when she was young, she was really very attractive. So, the men lusted after her, which was part of why Brigham wanted her even though any children he had with her would be sealed to Joseph. He couldn’t let her go back to her only legal husband, but wanted her, so he took her without giving her any real say in the matter.

Oh, and how Brigham solved the problem of all the extra men. It was that women did not have to be righteous, just give birth. They just had to be married with a husband who wanted to add them to his collection. I believe somewhere there is a BY quote that says women “earn” their ticket to the CK by giving birth. It is kind of round about, with a note of what the hell is he talking about with women over coming the curse of Eve by giving birth marks her for the CK. Anyway, that was kind of an early understanding that many of the women had. My grandmother once said something about what her mother said about she was saved into the CK when her first born was born. I was shocked by the statement because it was so illogical. Women did not have to obey any commandment except multiply and replenish?!? I was probably only 6 or so, but it shocked me because it was nothing to do with the women's choices back before there was birth control, but just on some man wanting to marry her and then her ability (I was old enough to have heard talk about women who couldn’t have babies for medical reasons) to give birth. So, anyway, if every woman who has ever given birth gets into the CK, there will be plenty to go around because the men have to be supper righteous to make it.

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Re: Polygamy and later sexual repression

Post by alas » Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:09 am

Oh, and I have mixed feelings about Zina. She obviously believed that JS & BY were prophets and she did the things that marked her as super righteous by Mormon standards. But I feel kind of funny about calling speaking in gibberish as being righteous. And her healing others just shows that they believed in her, because for the placebo effect to work, the one being healed must believe. And I feel kind of ambivalent about the women willing to ditch their legal husband to marry someone who told her that God told him that she was supposed to.

I understand how “speaking in tongues” thing works from a psychological/scientific standpoint goes. The person basically goes into a self induced trance and babbles, thinking it makes sense.



OK, you can SEE my attitude. The people were gullible to the point that I lose respect. Even considering that they were uneducated and believed this stuff, still being capable of getting so emotionally worked up that you put yourself into a trance like state. I get drug induced stuff, but getting so emotional that you put your brain on self produced drugs by putting out brain chemicals to the state that you lose control of reality.

OK, I will stop. I just don’t get this level of gullible.

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Re: Polygamy and later sexual repression

Post by RubinHighlander » Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:34 am

Palerider wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:46 am
He didn't pull away and the smell of his rotting molars hit me like a ton of hay falling off Brother Smith's hay trailer.
Won't be able to even masturbate for several days after that. Well played sir!
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Re: Polygamy and later sexual repression

Post by Palerider » Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:44 am

RubinHighlander wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:34 am
Palerider wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:46 am
He didn't pull away and the smell of his rotting molars hit me like a ton of hay falling off Brother Smith's hay trailer.
Won't be able to even masturbate for several days after that. Well played sir!

Just so we're clear, I didn't write the aforementioned missive....not my style. ;)
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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Re: Polygamy and later sexual repression

Post by Rob4Hope » Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:55 pm

alas wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:41 am
Oh, and how Brigham solved the problem of all the extra men. It was that women did not have to be righteous, just give birth. They just had to be married with a husband who wanted to add them to his collection. I believe somewhere there is a BY quote that says women “earn” their ticket to the CK by giving birth. It is kind of round about, with a note of what the hell is he talking about with women over coming the curse of Eve by giving birth marks her for the CK. Anyway, that was kind of an early understanding that many of the women had. My grandmother once said something about what her mother said about she was saved into the CK when her first born was born. I was shocked by the statement because it was so illogical.
OK...this elicited feelings and may actually support something I want to say.

First of all Alas...this BLOWS MY MIND! I didn't know any of this. But it makes sense. It actually does. But what is disgusting is you have a man who is supposed to be righteous, and his attitude toward his wife is "spread um babe. Lets work out your salvation!".

I'm sorry for being blunt...but that is how it seems to have been communicated from what you are saying above. The guy is filled with lust, he probably doesn't care much for the woman (like how BY treated his wives -- he was cruel!), but in that moment he just wants to get off.

This takes sexuality and debased it to just this side of rape, justified in religious parlance to force compliance but to also justify utterly offensive behavior.

I submit that such conduct by the early LDS leadership created a backlash of anger and disgust toward sexuality in general. And I think that backlash filtered down through the ranks and influence children who came through lines of polygamy, specifically: Joseph Fielding Smith, Spencer Kimball, Harold B. Lee, etc. And it was that backlash that made them uber repressive when the cultural backlash of the 60s hit. At that point, sex was for having children ONLY, and any other expression (such as the sexual lust manifested by early leadership) was equated exclusively with sin.

Problem is, somewhere in the middle there is a respectful, mutually beneficial AND FUN place. Sex with your spouse where you both have fun, for the sake of fun, is no sin (depending on when and who you ask).

Do you understand my point?

Thoughts?

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Re: Polygamy and later sexual repression

Post by Rob4Hope » Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:01 pm

alas wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:09 am
The person basically goes into a self induced trance and babbles, thinking it makes sense.
My question is tangential to this thread. But I want to ask it anyway. Perhaps it will become a new thread.

On my mission I heard someone speak in tongues one time. It had cadence and articulation. It creeped me out because it didn't sound like babbling to me; it sounded like something was being woven together that was too complex to be just babbles.

I know of stories where the babblings are just that...gibberish. But, there are those occasional episodes where I wonder.

Also, you all know I have been looking at NDE and the whole consciousness existing outside of the body thing as well. The whole concept of possession comes up. If such a thing exists, could a foreign spirit infiltrate a body and speak in a foreign tongue?

If this post gets many responses, someone (or I will) start up a new thread. Might be interesting.

Thoughts?

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Re: Polygamy and later sexual repression

Post by Rob4Hope » Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:50 pm

Zina’s views on polygamy are found in the 1869 New York World interview. The journalist, “H.,” described Zina as “a tall, thin lady, apparently about fifty years of age” who ascribed much of the unhappiness in polygamous families to women who expect “too much attention from the husband and because they do not obtain it, or see a little attention bestowed upon one of the other wives, they become sullen and morose, and permit their ill-temper to finally find vent.” First wives are a particular problem, as they have a tendency to look upon the husband with a “selfish devotion” that desires to claim all his time and attention for themselves. The successful polygamous wife, as her marriage develops, “must regard her husband with indifference, and wits no other feeling than that of reverence, for love we regard as a false sentiment; a feeling which should have no existence in polygamy.” By “love” Zina meant romantic love only, not Christian love, and in this interview she was repeating conventional Mormon rhetoric disparaging romance. (added emphasis myself).

Compton, Todd M.. In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith (Kindle Locations 2849-2852). Signature Books. Kindle Edition.
How sad...

But it appears sexual repression was already seated. Could it be that 'faithful' mothers who came from that era were already teaching such things to their children?....and is this a foundation of repression?

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