Save My Soul, brother TBM

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slavereeno
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Save My Soul, brother TBM

Post by slavereeno » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:14 pm

I have a good friend that I banter via email with. (I know this is a pointless endeavor, and ill advised at best.) In a prior email I said Joseph Smith marrying a bunch of women including teenagers and other men's wives then hiding it from the church is an example of him being dishonest. Here is the reply, it has a ton of sarcasm in it. (enjoy!):
JS Teenagers: Warning, this is going to get ugly. Again there is more proof that he did NOT have sexual relations with these women than there is that he did but since he "married" them it must be for sex. Lets toss aside the fact that some of these so called marriages were "sealings" because we dont do that today therefore it couldn't have been that way then even tho it clearly was what they did if you read your history instead of believing someone that said he/she read the history. With your logic why are you not saying he was gay too? That would be worse than polygamy! Why not come out and say he was gay!? He sealed men to him so he must be gay! And completely give no credit to the poor 14 year old girl, yes girl, and her parents for telling Joseph HELL NO but then after having a life changing spiritual experience that in their hearts they knew it was what they needed to do. Dam those liars to hell! There are no spiritual experiences they are all wacked! And you left out the fact, that when women entered polygamy at a young age it is up to her to stay in that marriage when she becomes of age and wants to have sex. Yes it is weird to us that they would even allow a 15 year old to get sealed to a man and not have sex or kids then let them pick another man to be sealed to when she wants to actually play housewife. But thats what they did. With that perspective, then "marrying" 14 year old's can now just be "sealed" just like the man was sealed to a man and it is a TON less creepy than what you think it is. I dont care that you dont believe this I completely know why you dont because you didn't read about it. But keep your mind closed, it was all about sex and abortion and gayness. Dont take the time to read about it. Actually just read about the people that had bad experiences with polygamy and that will be your answer, disregard the good ones they must be lying. Abortion because he left no kids behind after all that sex so the molly mormon women he was "married" to also believed in abortions. It is the only logical path one can take since as you say it was all about sex. Even if you didnt say it was about sex your mind went there as you feel it is wrong to marry a 14 year old. I say it is weird to seal yourself to a 14 year old for eternity and not be playing house, but thats what they did. Its weird to seal a man to a man too but thats what they did. It is really weird why JS "married" a 53 year old too since it was all about sex. Ah but what about "marriage" to the married women!?!? Holy devil hugging crap! And while the hubby was on a mission!! Burn him at the stake! If you read church history, there was clearly a belief that JS and other leaders were doing the members a solid by sealing as many to them as they could for SALVATION! Wait it was just sex.....wait there were no kids? Wait the abortion thing! Thats it. Could not possibly be what the leaders and participants actually said it was, I know better than to believe them. Now if you have even read this far, I need to go back and admit that yes like I have said a thousand times, I see where people see this stuff in the history and loose a lung over it. But if they just look at more than JS married a 14 year old! they can see there are actually some possible explanations. But you have chosen not to believe in the church so just as my mind sees how this all fits, your mind refuses to fit it. We are both skewed from our perspectives which is why this is so fun to banter about with you! I will also say my search for truth in history is to find the explanations to the questions I have that prove/explain the church right. If I started out looking for proof that it was crap, I would have found that too. Hence again, we are both skewed/bias.
As I see it he sets up a straw-man: Slavereeno thinks every marriage and sealing was all about sex for Joseph Smith. I see this as a straw-man because I never said that, in prior emails I have stated clearly that I didn't think it was ALL about sex but that it was sometimes about sex. Then he destroys the straw-man and would like to claim victory in this point of conversation.
Last edited by slavereeno on Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Linked
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Re: Save My Soul, brother TBM

Post by Linked » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:25 pm

That was painful. And who said being gay is worse than polygamy?

"Yeah, I'll admit I am biased, but your bias is just as bad as mine, let's call it even (but I'm right, you unread heathen that chooses not to believe even though there is so much evidence that I'm right)."
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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wtfluff
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Re: Save My Soul, brother TBM

Post by wtfluff » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:41 pm

slavereeno wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:14 pm
...
if you read your history instead of believing someone that said he/she read the history
...
He sealed men to him so he must be gay!
...
You should just ask your buddy to start providing references for all the stuff he "knows" that he claims you don't know.

Hint: "The law of adoption" which he is referring to about men being sealed to men didn't happen until after Joseph was dead. It came about during Brigham Young's time.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Dravin
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Re: Save My Soul, brother TBM

Post by Dravin » Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:11 pm

The fun thing about the LDS concept about the line of authority is you don't have to excuse Joseph you have to excuse every single LDS prophet. So you can argue that Joseph didn't sleep with multiple women, but Brigham did so you still have to defend it as moral behavior. You can argue that Joseph didn't marry teenagers because they weren't real marriages, but Brigham did so you still have to defend it as moral behavior. The only accusation you may not possibly be able to throw at Brigham that can be thrown at Joseph concerns some of the secrecy.

Remind them they need to be careful when defending Brigham Young because if the way Brigham Young practiced polygamy was correct we are put in an interesting position when it comes to evaluating Joseph Smith's practice. Was he doing it wrong? Or doing it too?
Hindsight is all well and good... until you trip.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Save My Soul, brother TBM

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:51 pm

I couldn't read the whole thing. My brain shut down.

Ask him to take a step back and count all the dominos he sets up to support Joseph Smith as a prophet.

Then point out that 4 simple words knocks down every domino.

"Joseph made it up."
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Arcturus
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Re: Save My Soul, brother TBM

Post by Arcturus » Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:17 pm

First of all, what an ass hat. Second, aren't the earliest primary sources pretty solid in that Emma and Oliver were pretty pissed about Joseph having his fling with Fanny Alger, and it was likely sexual in nature? What "reading" is this ass hat talking about?
Dravin wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:11 pm
The fun thing about the LDS concept about the line of authority is you don't have to excuse Joseph you have to excuse every single LDS prophet. So you can argue that Joseph didn't sleep with multiple women, but Brigham did so you still have to defend it as moral behavior. You can argue that Joseph didn't marry teenagers because they weren't real marriages, but Brigham did so you still have to defend it as moral behavior. The only accusation you may not possibly be able to throw at Brigham that can be thrown at Joseph concerns some of the secrecy.
Third, this is a really good point Dravin.
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
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Palerider
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Re: Save My Soul, brother TBM

Post by Palerider » Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:29 pm

slavereeno wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:14 pm

JS Teenagers: Warning, this is going to get ugly. Again there is more proof that he did NOT have sexual relations with these women than there is that he did ( I'd like to see this "proof". Call for reference) but since he "married" them it must be for sex. Lets toss aside the fact that some of these so called marriages were "sealings" because we dont do that today (I think we do do it that way. The reality is we are sealed in the temple and then are considered "married" and we go home and have sex.) therefore it couldn't have been that way then even tho it clearly was what they did if you read your history instead of believing someone that said he/she read the history. (Oh, like you believe what your apostles and apologists tell you the history means rather than using your own brain) With your logic why are you not saying he was gay too? That would be worse than polygamy! Why not come out and say he was gay!? He sealed men to him so he must be gay! (And why don't we seal men to men today? Was Joseph teaching a false doctrine? )And completely give no credit to the poor 14 year old girl, yes girl, and her parents for telling Joseph HELL NO but then after having a life changing spiritual experience that in their hearts they knew it was what they needed to do. (Or gave in to the enormous pressure) Dam those liars to hell! There are no spiritual experiences they are all wacked! And you left out the fact, that when women entered polygamy at a young age it is up to her to stay in that marriage ( Call for a reference here.) when she becomes of age and wants to have sex. Yes it is weird to us that they would even allow a 15 year old to get sealed to a man and not have sex or kids then let them pick another man to be sealed to when she wants to actually play housewife. But thats what they did. ("This is an explanation? "That's what they did"???)

With that perspective, then "marrying" 14 year old's can now just be "sealed" just like the man was sealed to a man and it is a TON less creepy than what you think it is. (No, it isn't...it's still as creepy as it was in the beginning. Having men sealed to men doesn't make it less so.) Idont care that you dont believe this I completely know why you dont because you didn't read about it. But keep your mind closed, it was all about sex and abortion and gayness. Dont take the time to read about it. Actually just read about the people that had bad experiences with polygamy and that will be your answer, disregard the good ones they must be lying. (Ever heard of Stockholm syndrome?) Abortion because he left no kids behind after all that sex so the molly mormon women he was "married" to also believed in abortions. It is the only logical path one can take since as you say it was all about sex. Even if you didnt say it was about sex your mind went there as you feel it is wrong to marry a 14 year old. I say it is weird to seal yourself to a 14 year old for eternity and not be playing house, but thats what they did. (Again with "that's what they did" That's no explanation. Doesn't make it right either.)I Its to seal a man to a man too but thats what they did.🙄 It is really weird why JS "married" a 53 year old too since it was all about sex. (What, you don't think 53 year old women have sex? Get real!) Ah but what about "marriage" to the married women!?!? Holy devil hugging crap! And while the hubby was on a mission!! Burn him at the stake! If you read church history, there was clearly a belief that JS and other leaders were doing the members a solid by sealing as many to them as they could for SALVATION! (So Joseph got permission to marry those wives BEFORE the men went on their missions, right? I mean he's doing them a "solid" right? So those husbands all approved, right?) Wait just sex.....wait there were no kids? Wait the abortion thing! Thats it. Could not possibly be what the leaders and participants actually said it was, (which was what? What did they say??? CFR) I know better than to believe them. Now if you have even read this far, I need to go back and admit that yes like I have said a thousand times, I see where people see this stuff in the history and loose a lung over it. But if they just look at more than JS married a 14 year old! they can see there are actually some possible explanations. But you have chosen not to believe in the church (No, I have chosen to believe in the truth rather than come up with implausible explanations to keep Joseph sacred) just as my mind sees how this all fits, your mind refuses to fit it. We are both skewed from our perspectives which is why this is so fun to banter about with you! I will also say my search for truth in history is to find the explanations to the questions I have that prove/explain the church right. If I started out looking for proof that it was crap, I would have found that too. (Wrong, if you had started out looking for proof that it was crap and it hadn't BEEN crap, you wouldn't have found any proof that it was.) Hence again, we are both skewed/bias. (I disagree...sorry... :| )
As I see it he sets up a straw-man: Slavereeno thinks every marriage and sealing was all about sex for Joseph Smith. I see this as a straw-man because I never said that, in prior emails I have stated clearly that I didn't think it was ALL about sex but that it was sometimes about sex. Then he destroys the straw-man and would like to claim victory in this point of conversation. There are some other fallacies here too like false equivalence. He will often throw an ad hominem argument in there too. Mostly pointing out my past failures and saying that if I have made mistakes then I have to allow for JS to make them also.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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IT_Veteran
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Re: Save My Soul, brother TBM

Post by IT_Veteran » Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:48 pm

Good lord that's difficult to read without throwing something. If Joseph didn't marry them for sex, if it was just to provide salvation to others - why didn't Emma know? Doesn't seem like she'd have a hard time with him bringing other people into a non-sexual familial relationship.

Worse - if it was just for people to be saved - why wasn't Emma sealed to him until he got past wife #22?`

Why did the church lie about it?

Why did Joseph lie about it?

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jfro18
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Re: Save My Soul, brother TBM

Post by jfro18 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:17 pm

Regarding spiritual witnesses that led to polygamy, this podcast from Bill Reel is amazing at just deconstructing how spiritual witnesses were and can be exploited. https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/201 ... periences/

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moksha
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Re: Save My Soul, brother TBM

Post by moksha » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:10 pm

It is really weird why JS "married" a 53-year-old too since it was all about sex.
Not weird at all that JS would be attracted to GILS (Grandmothers I'de Love to Seal). After all, he was known for the famous prank at the School of the Prophets where he had the elders line up via the command, "Up against the wall mother sealers".
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Re: Save My Soul, brother TBM

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:10 pm

moksha wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:10 pm
It is really weird why JS "married" a 53-year-old too since it was all about sex.
Not weird at all that JS would be attracted to GILS (Grandmothers I'de Love to Seal). After all, he was known for the famous prank at the School of the Prophets where he had the elders line up via the command, "Up against the wall mother sealers".
Ha ha!

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slavereeno
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Re: Save My Soul, brother TBM

Post by slavereeno » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:34 pm

moksha wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:10 pm
Not weird at all that JS would be attracted to GILS (Grandmothers I'de Love to Seal).
:lol: Great, now that's going to be rolling around in my head next time polygamy gets brought up...

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slavereeno
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Re: Save My Soul, brother TBM

Post by slavereeno » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:57 pm

Pale Rider, thanks for this, in my response I mentioned Stockholm Syndrome also.
Arcturus wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:17 pm
aren't the earliest primary sources pretty solid in that Emma and Oliver were pretty pissed about Joseph having his fling with Fanny Alger, and it was likely sexual in nature?
Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:51 pm
Ask him to take a step back and count all the dominos he sets up to support Joseph Smith as a prophet.
IT_Veteran wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:48 pm
Worse - if it was just for people to be saved - why wasn't Emma sealed to him until he got past wife #22?`
Why did the church lie about it?
Why did Joseph lie about it?
These are all great questions, the problem is that having these conversations with apologist types is like playing whack-a-mole. You try to get them to answer any of these questions and it will go off on a tangent somewhere else. The long quote above came about because I was trying to say that Joseph Smith had shown a pattern of deception throughout his life. One of the things in the list I mentioned was the hiding of polygamy and this is where the conversation went.

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Re: Save My Soul, brother TBM

Post by Corsair » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:58 pm

How angry do you have to be to not put in paragraph breaks? Let's leave that aside for more substantive criticisms.

First, In virtually all of history, if two people are declared married, the burden of proof is on them if anyone wants to claim that sex was not involved.

Second, Zina D. H. Young was legally married to Henry Jacobs, Joseph Smith, and Brigham Young. She biologically had two children with Henry Jacobs and one with Brigham Young. Who is Zina sealed to? Who are Zina's children sealed to? Are her three children still considered "siblings" if they are sealed to different men? Are Zina's two older children sealed to Joseph Smith? Is Henry Jacobs sealed to anyone at all?

Third, would Brother TBM like to explain the rules of polygamy? The tone in this wall of text indicates that it's clearly your fault for not understanding the sacred rules of polygamy. Perhaps he could prayerfully expound the clearly provided rules of plural marriage in
D&C 132:61-65, D&C 132:41, Romans 7:3, Leviticus 18:8, Leviticus 20:14, and Jacob 2:24-30. Surely, Heavenly Father would not introduce something as complicating as plural marriage without giving instructions. Obviously Joseph Smith would not want to accidentally violate the fourth major covenant made in the temple.

Lastly I would like to see Brother TBM explain brief history of plural marriage to a group of Young Women who have been studying up on the ongoing issues with Harvey Weinstein, Bill Cosby, Bill Clinton and several other wealthy, powerful men who have had an unfortunate association with the #MeToo hashtag.

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Hagoth
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Re: Save My Soul, brother TBM

Post by Hagoth » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:55 am

slavereeno wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:14 pm
Slavereeno thinks every marriage and sealing was all about sex for Joseph Smith.
First of all, I would refer you friend to the official essay:
Sealings for time and eternity included commitments and relationships during this life, generally including the possibility of sexual relations Eternity-only sealings indicated relationships in the next life alone. Evidence indicates that Joseph Smith participated in both types of sealings.
Second, when someone defends something this emotionally it's usually because they are also very bothered by it and are going to great lengths to convince both you and themselves otherwise.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: Save My Soul, brother TBM

Post by RubinHighlander » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:53 am

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:55 am
Second, when someone defends something this emotionally it's usually because they are also very bothered by it and are going to great lengths to convince both you and themselves otherwise.
Nailed it!
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slavereeno
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Re: Save My Soul, brother TBM

Post by slavereeno » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:33 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:55 am
slavereeno wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:14 pm
Slavereeno thinks every marriage and sealing was all about sex for Joseph Smith.
First of all, I would refer you friend to the official essay:
Sealings for time and eternity included commitments and relationships during this life, generally including the possibility of sexual relations Eternity-only sealings indicated relationships in the next life alone. Evidence indicates that Joseph Smith participated in both types of sealings.
Second, when someone defends something this emotionally it's usually because they are also very bothered by it and are going to great lengths to convince both you and themselves otherwise.
Wow, right out of the essay, nice. Thanks Hagoth.

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DPRoberts
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Re: Save My Soul, brother TBM

Post by DPRoberts » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:34 pm

moksha wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:10 pm
It is really weird why JS "married" a 53-year-old too since it was all about sex.
Not weird at all that JS would be attracted to GILS (Grandmothers I'de Love to Seal). After all, he was known for the famous prank at the School of the Prophets where he had the elders line up via the command, "Up against the wall mother sealers".
ROFL :lol:
Last edited by DPRoberts on Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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græy
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Re: Save My Soul, brother TBM

Post by græy » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:06 pm

moksha wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:10 pm
Not weird at all that JS would be attracted to GILS (Grandmothers I'de Love to Seal).
:lol:

This should be a T-Shirt. Kind of like the SILF (Sandwich I'd like to F....ool around with.)
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oliblish
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Re: Save My Soul, brother TBM

Post by oliblish » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:24 pm

I think this quote from the Polygamy essay on lds.org sheds some light on this:
“I made a greater sacrifice than to give my life,” said Zina Huntington Jacobs, “for I never anticipated again to be looked upon as an honorable woman.”
Why would Zina think she would not be looked upon as an honorable woman after being sealed to Joseph Smith if it was a non-sexual sealing? Why would it need to be kept so secret?
Stands next to Kolob, called by the Egyptians Oliblish, which is the next grand governing creation near to the celestial or the place where God resides; holding the key of power also, pertaining to other planets; as revealed from God to Abraham

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