Weak anachronistic arguments

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Weak anachronistic arguments

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:27 am

I keep falling into the trap of weak anachronistic arguments rather than pointing out mere physics reality arguments. I need to wear the NOM hair shirt for awhile.

My young son mentions while reading Ether about the transoceanic vessels the whole "can't have windows" saying the story is getting crazy. Normally I would sit back and keep the lips zipped for peace, but not wanting to miss an opportunity to reinforce critical thought, brought up the glass window anachronism. That was my mistake.

Wife comes back next day and says that it doesn't say glass windows and that it could mean shutters. Fair enough (no pun intended).

I then mention that the phrase "dash to pieces" originates from shakespear and the 1611 KJV translation. Didn't help much.

A much more effective way would have been to merely point out that trying to keep a beehive upright in a rotating vessel for 365 plus days would have been messy. Case closed at that point without much counter argument.

Last edited by FiveFingerMnemonic on Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Weak anachronistic arguments

Post by RubinHighlander » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:57 am

Sounds like a no win situation between TBM DW and son's inquiring mind...the only easy answer is the dumb appologetic one.

Even if the plug in those barges wasn't a window, it's just as credible to say that maybe the magic glowing stones provided some artificial gravity, like on the star ship Enterprise.
Son "Now you are just being silly Dad!"
Dad "Am I son?"
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IT_Veteran
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Re: Weak anachronistic arguments

Post by IT_Veteran » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:08 am

"Hmm - I wonder where they got the water to drink for all those people and animals?"

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Corsair
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Re: Weak anachronistic arguments

Post by Corsair » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:20 am

It's easy to forget the best rhetorical responses to LDS claims. The goal of a faith transition is to spend more time with subjects that are actually useful, not more cheerleading for or against a high demand religion. Keep to a Socratic method and just keep asking questions getting the other guy to draw his own conclusions about the latest scripture story.

The LDS loves to put teens in 19th century clothes and have them experience an emotionally manipulative trek. Ask a Mormon if, instead of "LDS pioneers across the plains", they try out "Jaredite barges across the ocean". On the upside, it's a lot less walking. Just have a group of teens get inside a bit wooden box. Each of them will get a good flashlight since the Brother of Jared did provide glowing rocks. Now let these teens spend all day singing hymns while adult leaders "rock the boat". Put the teens in their with a barrel of water and some food for the journey. Provide a hole for normal bathroom functions. Throw in some friendly farm animals. Put in a small hive of bees for real authenticity!

Let me know how long this insane experiment lasts. There will be screaming and mayhem within 10 minutes. A full hour locked up like this will probably generate an arrest warrant for whatever genius ordered this kind of simulation.

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wtfluff
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Re: Weak anachronistic arguments

Post by wtfluff » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:23 am

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:27 am
A much more effective way would have been to merely point out that trying to keep a beehive upright in a rotating vessel for 365 plus days would have been messy. Case closed at that point without much counter argument.
I think you're forgetting the all-encompassing counter-argument that always works for believers: MAGIC! (Kind of like Rubin mentioned: "Elohim just suspended gravity during the time the Jaradites were cruising along in their pre-historic trans-oceanic submarines!" Whew! That was easy, and that painful cog-dis in my head is gone now!.)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: Weak anachronistic arguments

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:14 am

IT_Veteran wrote:"Hmm - I wonder where they got the water to drink for all those people and animals?"
Perfect! And a very appropriate question even young kids could grasp.

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Palerider
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Re: Weak anachronistic arguments

Post by Palerider » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:01 pm

IT_Veteran wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:08 am
"Hmm - I wonder where they got the water to drink for all those people and animals?"
Hey....if the Lord is willing to make stone lights why not graphine desalination filters? :roll:
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

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Arcturus
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Re: Weak anachronistic arguments

Post by Arcturus » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:20 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:23 am
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:27 am
A much more effective way would have been to merely point out that trying to keep a beehive upright in a rotating vessel for 365 plus days would have been messy. Case closed at that point without much counter argument.
I think you're forgetting the all-encompassing counter-argument that always works for believers: MAGIC! (Kind of like Rubin mentioned: "Elohim just suspended gravity during the time the Jaradites were cruising along in their pre-historic trans-oceanic submarines!" Whew! That was easy, and that painful cog-dis in my head is gone now!.)
Come on guys. They likely merged into a rapid moving ocean current like on finding nemo and made it to the Americas in a few days. No need for magic or fantastic explanations. It's easy...
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
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RubinHighlander
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Re: Weak anachronistic arguments

Post by RubinHighlander » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:37 pm

Arcturus wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:20 pm

Come on guys. They likely merged into a rapid moving ocean current like on finding nemo and made it to the Americas in a few days. No need for magic or fantastic explanations. It's easy...
And wouldn't that be more believable? By adding all the needless crazy suffering and trials to the story, JS really did F it up!

Reminds me of Elf when Santa's turbo engine breaks down and there's not quite enough faith to get him up and running again. That is until the crowd sings a hymn, get's emotional and get's their BS confirmation bias all lined up again.
"Alla-peanutbutter-sandwiches" POOF!
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nibbler
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Re: Weak anachronistic arguments

Post by nibbler » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:11 pm

Arcturus wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:20 pm
Come on guys. They likely merged into a rapid moving ocean current like on finding nemo and made it to the Americas in a few days. No need for magic or fantastic explanations. It's easy...
Except for that pesky Ether 6:11:
And thus they were driven forth, three hundred and forty and four days upon the water.
Maybe they did find a current that only took a couple of days but they made 100 round trips, only bringing a few things with them each time.
We see things not as they are, but as we are ourselves. - H.M. Tomlinson

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Hagoth
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Re: Weak anachronistic arguments

Post by Hagoth » Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:05 pm

And thus they were driven forth, three hundred and forty and four days upon the water.
One problem with this is that you could drift across the Pacific in about the same time, even in calm weather without mountainous waves pushing you along. The Atlantic only takes about 90 days. It's been done by people on rafts.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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slavereeno
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Re: Weak anachronistic arguments

Post by slavereeno » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:33 pm

Corsair wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:20 am
Ask a Mormon if, instead of "LDS pioneers across the plains", they try out "Jaredite barges across the ocean". On the upside, it's a lot less walking. Just have a group of teens get inside a bit wooden box. Each of them will get a good flashlight since the Brother of Jared did provide glowing rocks. Now let these teens spend all day singing hymns while adult leaders "rock the boat". Put the teens in their with a barrel of water and some food for the journey. Provide a hole for normal bathroom functions. Throw in some friendly farm animals. Put in a small hive of bees for real authenticity!
:lol: This absolutely made my day. If I am ever asked about a youth activity again, I will try to suggest this in the most serious manner I can and with a straight face. Then I will offer to supply the bees.

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