2nd Commandment

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Just This Guy
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2nd Commandment

Post by Just This Guy » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:46 am

DW had an interesting thought and I was interested to get your take on it.

The 2nd commandment says to not take the lards name in vain. For most people, that means something like not using the name of god out of context or for purposes of profanity or an an explative. Profanity has also been expanded to cover any word or phrase that is not socially allowable.

Is this really what it means? Are there any examples of it being used in that context in that is the scriptures? Are there any examples of people specifically violating the 2nd commandment in the scriptures at all?

Maybe this goes back to the discussion of god being the god of nitpicking, but when casual language usage is included next to the prohibition on murder, that seams out of place.

Is the idea of "taking the lord name in vain" a bit more literal, with taking the lord name and putting it on something god did not actually say? 'Taking' the name of god for false quotes. Whether it be false prophecy, or using the name of god for personal gain and enrichment (false tithes), it's using the name of god not build up the kingdom.

DW and I joke that if a business uses bible verses or Christian symbols in their logos or advertising, it's usually a warning that they are shady at best. Not always, but the stereotype does tend to exist for a reason. Is that more what the 2nd commandment is referring to? To not use the name of god to defraud or mislead people?
Last edited by Just This Guy on Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2nd Commandment

Post by RubinHighlander » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:05 am

Oh God, hear the words of my mouth!
That is one of the most obscure commandments and I'd also be interested to see a more exact definition in it's historical time frame. What was going on amongst the Jews at that time that warranted a strong response?

For me, in the modern age, I was sufficiently indoctrinated as a TBM and it was offensive to hear anyone use "Oh My God" or "God Damnit" in their casual day to day talk. Even the causal use of Jesus made my TBM hair standup on the back of my neck. But now I enjoy and use those phrases just as much as most of the other folks on the planet. It's an irony, since I don't believe in an old man god persona anymore.
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Re: 2nd Commandment

Post by Gatorbait » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:46 am

Many who read this skip on because they don't swear at all, let alone profane in the unthinkable "vain" areas. Hmmm

What does it mean? Are all the people who say, "Oh my god" over and over- are they going to burn in hell?

Or, how about the "vain" repetition group? "Hey Brigham, we don't want to use the name for the priesthood The Holy Order of God or something like that cause that is saying God too much and God does not like that. Let's use a word that no one has heard of, let alone spell, like Mel-kez-dick."

This is one more thing that God was so worried about that he gave old Moses a couple of stones with things written on them so old Moses would not forget them. Then Moses threw down these stones- he didn't care if God wrote them or not- because the people were naughty when he, Moses, was up chatting it up with God. Good old Moses. Wonder what he thought when he went back to God and asked for some newly written stones.

Course God got tired of writing on stones, or anything since then. Moses ruined that for all of us. Jerk. Threw down the stones. So God decided that he is not going to write anything down again for man. "You are on your own. I will tell you and you will write it on paper or gold or brass or whatever. No more breaking my stones."
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Re: 2nd Commandment

Post by wtfluff » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:59 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:46 am
The 2nd commandment says to not take the lards name in vain.
Of all the lards that humans have invented, I think the Flying Spaghetti Monster is my favorite of whom's name I like to take in vain. (At this precise instant in time.) I wonder if in Flying Spaghetti Monster world, Flying Spaghetti Monster-Satan wins when you call the Flying Spaghetti Monster "FSM" ?

No matter what, may the Flying Spaghetti Monster blesses us with saucy balls. (Vain?)

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Re: 2nd Commandment

Post by Cnsl1 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:01 pm

I thought that was the third commandment. The second one is about graven images, isn't it?

Based on what I remember about the Hebrew translation, the third commandment is more about using God's name vainly, or for vanity purposes, rather than just about profanity. I took it to mean that God isn't happy with those using his name to get gain, or to those who profess their devotion but have hearts far from him.

So, less about Jim Bob saying Gawd Dammit and more about Reverend Jim saying let me pray to God for you, son, please drop a twenty to help God's work (and my boat payment). Amen.

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Re: 2nd Commandment

Post by Arcturus » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:22 pm

Cnsl1 wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:01 pm

Based on what I remember about the Hebrew translation, the third commandment is more about using God's name vainly, or for vanity purposes, rather than just about profanity. I took it to mean that God isn't happy with those using his name to get gain, or to those who profess their devotion but have hearts far from him.
My understanding is along these lines as well. I don't think the commandment has much to do with profaning God's name.
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Re: 2nd Commandment

Post by moksha » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:19 pm

The Second Commandment refers to:
  • "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image" under the Philonic division used by Hellenistic Jews,and Protestants.
  • "Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image" under the Talmudic division of the third-century Jewish Talmud.
  • "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain" under the Augustinian division used by Roman Catholics and Lutherans.
  • "Don't say naughty words" under the Mormonian dispensation used by the villagers in the Orem-Provo prefecture.
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Palerider
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Re: 2nd Commandment

Post by Palerider » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:24 am

According to my Jewish Study Bible, taking the name of God/Jehovah in vain refers in this instance to swearing falsely by his name.

To expand: When making an oath, making a covenant, testifying regarding the truth of any legal situation, if the Lord's name is invoked....one cannot renig, give false information, fail to keep the bargain, etc., etc.

To do so would imply that the name of Jehovah really meant nothing to the swearer and that he/she actually had no respect for God or his power and position.

That being said it doesn't mean that using the name of God or Christ as an expletive is Kosher. Christ said of His Father: "Hallowed be thy name."

So I see neither profaning the name of God/Christ or falsely "taking" (invoking) them as authoritative to be a good thing. ;)
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Re: 2nd Commandment

Post by felixfabulous » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:11 am

The words "Lord" and "God" in the Bible are English placeholders for the Hebrew names for Jehovah (Lord) and Elohim (God). So, using the name God is using a title or placeholder, not the actual name of God. My kids were watching a Studio C about funny greek god names, like the god of toilet paper. I was thinking, how is this acceptable, but someone saying something like "Good God" would be blasphemous?

The Biblical scholarship I've read equates taking the name of God in vain with attributing or invoking the name of God inappropriately, like saying God told you to do something that he didn't (like killing every man, woman, child and beast of a village, for example). That seems like a much better way to view it, but brings up all kinds of ways to question authority and previous actions, so I think we stick with the nonsensical interpretation we have now.

Also, this is what Joseph Smith said to Martin Harris when he lost the 116 pages, how is this not taking the name of God in vain according to our interpretation? "Oh, my God! ... All is lost! all is lost! What shall I do? I have sinned—it is I who tempted the wrath of God"

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Re: 2nd Commandment

Post by Just This Guy » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:09 am

felixfabulous wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:11 am
Also, this is what Joseph Smith said to Martin Harris when he lost the 116 pages, how is this not taking the name of God in vain according to our interpretation? "Oh, my God! ... All is lost! all is lost! What shall I do? I have sinned—it is I who tempted the wrath of God"

Do you happen to have a citation for this?
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Re: 2nd Commandment

Post by felixfabulous » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:18 am

Just This Guy wrote:Do you happen to have a citation for this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_116_ ... te_note-22

It looks like it comes from Rough Stone Rolling

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Re: 2nd Commandment

Post by Just This Guy » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:23 am

Thank you, Felixfaulous!
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Re: 2nd Commandment

Post by Hagoth » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:28 am

You know in general conference when they tell you what God wants you to do but it's really what they want you to do, or when they tell you what God thinks about something but it's really what they think? You know how they make their living doing that, and how they are constantly surrounded by an adoring public who treat them like kings?

That.
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Re: 2nd Commandment

Post by oliblish » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:49 am

The last thing Joseph said after he was shot was "Oh Lord! my God!". No one ever seems to be bothered by that.

I think if I said that after hitting my thumb with a hammer it would turn a few heads here in Utah County.
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Re: 2nd Commandment

Post by Palerider » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:15 am

oliblish wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:49 am
The last thing Joseph said after he was shot was "Oh Lord! my God!". No one ever seems to be bothered by that.

I think if I said that after hitting my thumb with a hammer it would turn a few heads here in Utah County.

Hate to paint this picture for you but I'm one of those people who when they throw up, we REALLY wretch in a big and exceedingly painful way. Sounds like I'm wrestling a grizzly bear. As a matter of fact in 41 years of marriage I've only done it twice. The second time being about six months ago.

My wife knows I'm kind of a stickler about using the Lord's name properly so when I finally let an "Oh, God!" escape my mouth it sort of punctuated how bad things really were. And I can take some pretty good pain....ended up in emergency. :roll:

I guess I wouldn't blame Joseph too much for crying out after having been shot several times. It's a hard way to go. :|
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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Re: 2nd Commandment

Post by wtfluff » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:45 am

Palerider wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:15 am
oliblish wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:49 am
The last thing Joseph said after he was shot was "Oh Lord! my God!". No one ever seems to be bothered by that.

I think if I said that after hitting my thumb with a hammer it would turn a few heads here in Utah County.

Hate to paint this picture for you but I'm one of those people who when they throw up, we REALLY wretch in a big and exceedingly painful way. Sounds like I'm wrestling a grizzly bear. As a matter of fact in 41 years of marriage I've only done it twice. The second time being about six months ago.

My wife knows I'm kind of a stickler about using the Lord's name properly so when I finally let an "Oh, God!" escape my mouth it sort of punctuated how bad things really were. And I can take some pretty good pain....ended up in emergency. :roll:

I guess I wouldn't blame Joseph too much for crying out after having been shot several times. It's a hard way to go. :|
Except that Joseph when he was "falling out the window" was repeating the Masonic distress call in an attempt to save his own @ss.

Were you hoping that the Masons would help you with your pain when you uttered those words palerider?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Re: 2nd Commandment

Post by Palerider » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:55 am

wtfluff wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:45 am

Except that Joseph when he was "falling out the window" was repeating the Masonic distress call in an attempt to save his own @ss.

Were you hoping that the Masons would help you with your pain when you uttered those words palerider?
:D
HaHa, yes, I've heard that as well. And it's probably true.

Any port in a storm, eh?

Although I doubt any Mason's would have had the courage to enter my bathroom at that point. :D
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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Re: 2nd Commandment

Post by Just This Guy » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:51 am

So if the original intent of the commandment against taking the lord's name in vain was against falsely acting as a mouthpiece of god, when did it morph into just about cussing?

It is interesting that this is NOT a Mormon issue. The interpretation on it just being about cussing in general is common throughout Christianity. Billy Graham's website says basically the same thing as LDS.org does on the topic.
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Not Buying It
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Re: 2nd Commandment

Post by Not Buying It » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:11 am

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:28 am
You know in general conference when they tell you what God wants you to do but it's really what they want you to do, or when they tell you what God thinks about something but it's really what they think? You know how they make their living doing that, and how they are constantly surrounded by an adoring public who treat them like kings?

That.
Yep. In my opinion, whenever the Brethren presume to speak for God, whatever comes out of their mouths is blasphemy. And Joseph Smith was about as blasphemous as a person can get, pretending to speak for God and using God's name to get power, money, and sex.

The "heathen" who routinely says "OMG!" is not 1/1000th as blasphemous as the phonies who pretend to speak for God. I think this commandment is completely misapplied, and we've been condemning the wrong people all these years.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Random
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Re: 2nd Commandment

Post by Random » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:35 pm

LDS scriptures seem to say that taking his name in vain is when a person says something by God's authority but he really didn't tell them to say it. One example that comes to mind is how displeased the Lord is with people using the word Mormon to describe the LDS Church and its members.
61 Wherefore, let all men beware how they take my name in their lips—

62 For behold, verily I say, that many there be who are under this condemnation, who use the name of the Lord, and use it in vain, having not authority.

63 Wherefore, let the church repent of their sins, and I, the Lord, will own them; otherwise they shall be cut off.

64 Remember that that which cometh from above is sacred, and must be spoken with care, and by constraint of the Spirit; and in this there is no condemnation, and ye receive the Spirit through prayer; wherefore, without this there remaineth condemnation.
D&C 63
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testa ... ng=eng#p61
Just This Guy wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:46 am
DW had an interesting thought and I was interested to get your take on it.

The 2nd commandment says to not take the lards name in vain. For most people, that means something like not using the name of god out of context or for purposes of profanity or an an explative. Profanity has also been expanded to cover any word or phrase that is not socially allowable.

Is this really what it means? Are there any examples of it being used in that context in that is the scriptures? Are there any examples of people specifically violating the 2nd commandment in the scriptures at all?

Maybe this goes back to the discussion of god being the god of nitpicking, but when casual language usage is included next to the prohibition on murder, that seams out of place.

Is the idea of "taking the lord name in vain" a bit more literal, with taking the lord name and putting it on something god did not actually say? 'Taking' the name of god for false quotes. Whether it be false prophecy, or using the name of god for personal gain and enrichment (false tithes), it's using the name of god not build up the kingdom.

DW and I joke that if a business uses bible verses or Christian symbols in their logos or advertising, it's usually a warning that they are shady at best. Not always, but the stereotype does tend to exist for a reason. Is that more what the 2nd commandment is referring to? To not use the name of god to defraud or mislead people?
[They] which knew me from the beginning . . . would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
Acts 26:5

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