How to Reconcile LDS Doubts

[Hagoth]

Often times a person whose chosen a delusion which causes him to believe he speaks for an entire community is suffering the side effects of a Satanic combination in my estimation.

Here's the thing, Azrael. Just about everyone here was all once a devout believer. We avoided like the plague anything that the church would call "anti-mormon" until we finally actually investigated some grain of sand that would not turn into a pearl as we hoped and prayed it would. It is the cheapest kind of anti-intellectual disrespect to simply write someone off as satanic because they have REALLY researched the truth claims of the church and found them wanting. Before you start throwing accusations like that around I suggest that you spend a few days actually researching the origin stories of the church from a critical outsider perspective, the way you would any other belief system.

If you're up to the challenge I will give you some things to read, the church's own Gospel Topic essays with some critical commentary. But I would warn you that it will cause you a lot of pain. And then, eventually, you will thank me.

[Azrael]

Does the truth hurt the same way lies hurt?

[Hagoth]

Does the truth hurt the same way lies hurt?

It's very painful to come to terms with the realization that you have been wrong all your life. For some people it takes incredible courage to own up to that, a degree of courage that they never had to encounter when they were following the counsel to of authority figures who tell them to run away at the first appearance of cognitive dissonance. But it's a hurt that comes with genuine satisfaction from finally getting real answers that make sense. Lies continue to hurt you and others as long as you run away from unpleasant truth, and as long as you condemn others as satanic, or deceived or sinful or whatever if they can't maintain the ability to keep believing in angels with gold plates and enchanted spectacles.

Let me know if you want to take me up on that reading challenge.

[Azrael]

Does the truth hurt the same way lies hurt?

It's very painful to come to terms with the realization that you have been wrong all your life. For some people it takes incredible courage to own up to that, a degree of courage that they never had to encounter when they were following the counsel to of authority figures who tell them to run away at the first appearance of cognitive dissonance. But it's a hurt that comes with genuine satisfaction from finally getting real answers that make sense. Lies continue to hurt you and others as long as you run away from unpleasant truth, and as long as you condemn others as satanic, or deceived or sinful or whatever if they can't maintain the ability to keep believing in angels with gold plates and enchanted spectacles.

Let me know if you want to take me up on that reading challenge.

My testimony is rock solid. For all you know you’re asking Jesus Christ himself to renounce his faith.

A big no thanks on being book buddies with you.

[Hagoth]

My testimony is rock solid. For all you know you’re asking Jesus Christ himself to renounce his faith.

A big no thanks on being book buddies with you.

You're comparing yourself testimony to Jesus'? Yikes. Anyway, I'm not asking you to read any books, I was just offering to discuss the church's own essays, but that's ok, even my bishop is afraid to read them.

[Azrael]

My testimony is rock solid. For all you know you’re asking Jesus Christ himself to renounce his faith.

A big no thanks on being book buddies with you.

You're comparing yourself testimony to Jesus'? Yikes. Anyway, I'm not asking you to read any books, I was just offering to discuss the church's own essays, but that's ok, even my bishop is afraid to read them.

My point is, I hope you’re sure of your stance, because you’ll have to explain it to Christ someday. Assuming you are a Christian still and believe in Final Judgement.


Perhaps he just knows better than to spend his time debating you.

Ok though, I’ll bite, what would you have me read?

Did you dig up some fresh loosely Interpreted anti Mormon material or will this be the same ole same ole?

[Hagoth]

Perhaps he just knows better than to spend his time debating you.

Ok though, I’ll bite, what would you have me read?

Did you dig up some fresh loosely Interpreted anti Mormon material or will this be the same ole same ole?

Actually, I came back to apologize for being contentious on Christmas Eve, of all days. I'll check back in a couple of days and we can pick this up again if you still want to. I don't really want a debate, I'm just hoping to see more people recognizing that there really are serious problems that deserve to be discussed rationally, rather than dismissed by the straw-manning and demonizing of people who are willing to grapple with them, regardless of the consequences.

Now I'm going to spend the rest of the evening enjoying my kids!

[moksha]

There can be only one 144,000 in the Elect, I suspect this will be a broad cross-section across many religions: Especially after Messiah consolidates all religions as part of his mission on Earth next time around.

Like 12,000 from the Tribe of Joseph, 12,000 from the Tribe of Peter, 12,000 from the Tribe of Siddhartha Gautama, 12,000 from the Tribe of Mohammed, etc...? On a grand scale, wouldn't you say that number was woefully inadequate or else was the product of a celestial clerical error?

[Azrael]

There can be only one 144,000 in the Elect, I suspect this will be a broad cross-section across many religions: Especially after Messiah consolidates all religions as part of his mission on Earth next time around.

Like 12,000 from the Tribe of Joseph, 12,000 from the Tribe of Peter, 12,000 from the Tribe of Siddhartha Gautama, 12,000 from the Tribe of Mohammed, etc...? On a grand scale, wouldn't you say that number was woefully inadequate or else was the product of a celestial clerical error?

You have some googling to do to even be close to entering a discussion with me on this topic.

[moksha]

You have some googling to do to even be close to entering a discussion with me on this topic.

What if I turned to panel three, page 11 of the cartoon edition of Great Estimations by Charles Dickens?


"Pip, you will never know what Azrael knows. Cut your losses and enjoy Christmas Eve.
There are only 30 seconds left till the Dr. Who commercial is over."

[Azrael]

You have some googling to do to even be close to entering a discussion with me on this topic.

What if I turned to panel three, page 11 of the cartoon edition of Great Estimations by Charles Dickens?


"Pip, you will never know what Azrael knows. Cut your losses and enjoy Christmas Eve.
There are only 30 seconds left till the Dr. Who commercial is over."

So clever! But my point remains.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Anon70]

True gentlemen. I learned a lot about patience, kindness and respectful engagement. Merry Christmas-I hope you have a lovely time with your families.

[Thoughtful]

My testimony is rock solid. For all you know you’re asking Jesus Christ himself to renounce his faith.

A big no thanks on being book buddies with you.

You're comparing yourself testimony to Jesus'? Yikes. Anyway, I'm not asking you to read any books, I was just offering to discuss the church's own essays, but that's ok, even my bishop is afraid to read them.

My point is, I hope you’re sure of your stance, because you’ll have to explain it to Christ someday. Assuming you are a Christian still and believe in Final Judgement.


Perhaps he just knows better than to spend his time debating you.

Ok though, I’ll bite, what would you have me read?

Did you dig up some fresh loosely Interpreted anti Mormon material or will this be the same ole same ole?

If you sincerely would like to explore the problems, be ready to do some legwork.

1--I suggest a deep read of the church history essays--all of them. Don't *just* read the first paragraph, follow the links to the entire essay. Follow all the footnotes and read the sources. When you follow the footnotes to their sources, read ahead and behind the selected passage to be sure you have an accurate context. Then go back to the claim the essay is making-- does it match up? Do that with each footnote, for each essay. Find the buried essays too-- the are three on LDS.org about polygamy. Some are harder to find.

2--After you've read all the essays and all the footnotes in context, start on the Joseph Smith papers. Read all the accounts of the first vision. Read up on the context of each release. Do a bit of a dive into the historical attitudes in and out of the church (not saying the attitudes of anti mormons but the attitudes of the Christian culture at the time regarding the trinity.)

3--Book of Abraham-- read the recently released statement by one of the authors of the essay.

4--JST-- read the paper published by BYU identifying the source material it was pulled from.

5--Year of Polygamy podcast. She cites her sources so you can follow and read those as well to verify the veracity of the accounts shared.

Good luck.

[Azrael]

You're comparing yourself testimony to Jesus'? Yikes. Anyway, I'm not asking you to read any books, I was just offering to discuss the church's own essays, but that's ok, even my bishop is afraid to read them.

My point is, I hope you’re sure of your stance, because you’ll have to explain it to Christ someday. Assuming you are a Christian still and believe in Final Judgement.


Perhaps he just knows better than to spend his time debating you.

Ok though, I’ll bite, what would you have me read?

Did you dig up some fresh loosely Interpreted anti Mormon material or will this be the same ole same ole?

If you sincerely would like to explore the problems, be ready to do some legwork.

1--I suggest a deep read of the church history essays--all of them. Don't *just* read the first paragraph, follow the links to the entire essay. Follow all the footnotes and read the sources. When you follow the footnotes to their sources, read ahead and behind the selected passage to be sure you have an accurate context. Then go back to the claim the essay is making-- does it match up? Do that with each footnote, for each essay. Find the buried essays too-- the are three on LDS.org about polygamy. Some are harder to find.

2--After you've read all the essays and all the footnotes in context, start on the Joseph Smith papers. Read all the accounts of the first vision. Read up on the context of each release. Do a bit of a dive into the historical attitudes in and out of the church (not saying the attitudes of anti mormons but the attitudes of the Christian culture at the time regarding the trinity.)

3--Book of Abraham-- read the recently released statement by one of the authors of the essay.

4--JST-- read the paper published by BYU identifying the source material it was pulled from.

5--Year of Polygamy podcast. She cites her sources so you can follow and read those as well to verify the veracity of the accounts shared.

Good luck.

I keep up on LDS publications.

I’m not sure why you’ve tasked me with reading all of this.

Perhaps a little commentary on how you feel each of these publications are relevant to this conversation?

[Brent]

The church lied, by omission at besr but by commision as well theres a loss of trust and sense of betrayal that cannot be described, much (i suppose) like finding out your spouse is cheating.

The Mormon church lied.
It made my father a lair by supplying him with lies.
It made me a liar, a willing ignorant liar.

Much like yourself. When i waa YMP, EQP, B1 & B2. HPG1, SSP, and GD Teacher I was bulletproof too.

Please explain to me how Joseph's hidden plural marriages were God's will?
How come Fanny Alger was the first woman sealed to a man in this dispensation?
Why was Emma the 13th?

Simple questions.

Oh, and describe the mechanics of "translation" for me.

[Palerider]

Please explain to me how Joseph's hidden plural marriages were God's will?
How come Fanny Alger was the first woman sealed to a man in this dispensation?
Why was Emma the 13th?

I believe Azrael is going to opt out on these issues because in his mind by this time Joseph had become a fallen prophet.

It's wonderful because you can approach Joseph cafeteria style and keep what you like and disregard what you don't like.

The best of all world's even though you have to throw Joseph under the bus at some point.

With all of the miriad of problems in the church and Joseph's history it seems so obvious that he was really never a prophet to begin with....ah well, to each his own.

[Azrael]

The church lied, by omission at besr but by commision as well theres a loss of trust and sense of betrayal that cannot be described, much (i suppose) like finding out your spouse is cheating.

The Mormon church lied.
It made my father a lair by supplying him with lies.
It made me a liar, a willing ignorant liar.

Much like yourself. When i waa YMP, EQP, B1 & B2. HPG1, SSP, and GD Teacher I was bulletproof too.

Please explain to me how Joseph's hidden plural marriages were God's will?
How come Fanny Alger was the first woman sealed to a man in this dispensation?
Why was Emma the 13th?

Simple questions.

Oh, and describe the mechanics of "translation" for me.

Like the Prophet Joseph Smith, you’ll be forgiven for the sins you repent of, and blessed for the Missions you were called to perform and completed successfully.

I believe Joseph was not commanded to institute plural marriage. I believe he was removed By Father before more damage could be done. I think the Jospeh Smith Translation of the Bible is a work of the Adversary. I think several false prophets have served as President of the LDS since. I think the Mormons have so much right, but a few things wrong, and when Christ returns to claim his throne those wrongs will be straightened out.

I don’t care what the LDS Church thinks of me for calling Smith (my cousin heh) a fallen prophet. I’m still on their rolls and if they want to take me off that’s their issue, not mine!

[Brent]

I take it you dont have a current temple recommend?

[Azrael]

I take it you dont have a current temple recommend?

No.

[Brent]

excellent.

Safe to say you are cherry picking mormonism?