August, 1836

[jfro18]

Emphasis on receiving one in the Eternities.

As Hiram Page found out, having one in mortality could make Joseph break out in hives.

Joseph had Hiram's stone ground to a powder and all his revelations that he had received and written down were burned.

Ouch!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiram_Page

The best part is that the three witnesses all believed Hiram was receiving revelation through the stone.

Doesn't that tell you everything you need to know about the witnesses?

I loved how Saints handled this one - that book is such a mess. I need to finish those last four chapters once work settles down.

[Palerider]

Doesn't that tell you everything you need to know about the witnesses?

It tells you a lot about the abilities of these men to detect real from false revelation...which was ZERO.

Which in turn is a direct reflection on the "revelations" of Joseph. These guys were about as gullible and unreliable as witnesses as they come. How can we possibly put any stock in their "testimonies" of Joseph or the BofM?

Even more telling is what this says about Joseph. Instead of telling Hiram Page that his revelations are bogus himself, Joseph sends Oliver to do his dirty work. He makes Oliver be the bad guy while he Joseph hides behind the curtain and pulls the strings and levers.

This seems to be an ongoing M.O. for Joseph. Getting others to do his stinky laundry so that he could come out smelling like a rose.

Isn't this the way he approached polygamy?

He would send some of his older, highly respected wives to recruit and groom the younger women in order to mitigate the initial reaction to what he was proposing. Kind of slimy when you think about it.

[Yobispo]

Or....

Could it mean that Joseph was caught in a web from which he could not extricate himself?

Was the driving force that OTHER people believed in him and had expectations of his abilities as a seer.? Did he feel an obligation to produce because if he didn't he would lose his standing as a leader called of God?

The man who first rehearsed the story was convinced the treasure was there and had likely convinced others it was true. It was an easy solution to their financial woes. I can see everyone looking at Joseph and thinking, "You're the prophet, let's go get this treasure!"
This strikes me as very similar to the effort to sell the BoM copyright in Canada that also turned into a fiasco.

Additionally, if he made the effort to search for the treasure he could always make up his stories for failure, just as he had in his youth.

I think it could go either way. Pious fraud or trapped in his own web of lies and the expectations of others. Crazy....

Your thought about him being trapped is how I always think about the Kirtland/Egyptian scroll fiasco. He was on the spot and had to produce.

[deacon blues]

No matter how you look at him, Joseph was an actor, and had honed his craft at playing such different roles as seer, prophet, contrite Christian, and maligned victim, depending on the circumstances.

[deacon blues]

One more document that relates to this thread.

August 17 Document Transcript: "Salem Mss. [Massachusetts] August 17, 1836. $100= For value we promise to pay Jonathan Burgess, one hundred dollars, one year from date, with use. O[liver] COWDERY[,] Sidney Rigdon[,] H[yrum] Smith[,] J[ospeh Smith] (JSP:D, v. 5, p. 280) Joseph Smith Papers, Documents, volume 5, p. 280.

[Palerider]

One more document that relates to this thread.

August 17 Document Transcript: "Salem Mss. [Massachusetts] August 17, 1836. $100= For value we promise to pay Jonathan Burgess, one hundred dollars, one year from date, with use. O[liver] COWDERY[,] Sidney Rigdon[,] H[yrum] Smith[,] J[ospeh Smith] (JSP:D, v. 5, p. 280) Joseph Smith Papers, Documents, volume 5, p. 280.

Hah!

I knew these guys didn't pay for their own excursion. And I'll bet Bro. Burgess never got paid back either. At least not by Joseph.

Maybe he got someone else to pick up the debt.

Nice find Deacon!

[Azrael]

Has anyone prayed to know if he was a prophet?

[Reuben]

Has anyone prayed to know if he was a prophet?

This question deserves its own thread.

[Palerider]

Has anyone prayed to know if he was a prophet?

Yes. Many, many times.

I have read the Book of Mormon seven times from cover to cover, plus I have studied it nearly all my life.

I can tell you without equivocation it is not a true history of the people on this continent before Columbus. It is not true scripture even though it attempts to portray itself that way.

Many books have SOME good things in them. Many books quote Biblical scripture but they are not scripture themselves.

I can also tell you that the Spirit has witnessed to me that Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God.

So.....

Now are you going to try to tell me that I didn't try hard enough? That I did something wrong? That maybe the Lord just didn't want me to know right then? Or even that I'm probably involved in some kind of sinful behavior?

Before you judge anyone here, I'd like you to think about how many millions and millions of people in the world have received and read copies of the Book of Mormon over the past 188 years and have read and prayed sincerely and either received the answer that the book was not true or received no answer at all. A "stupor of thought" so to speak.

I would bet there are MANY more who have received the "no" answer and rightly so. Because the book is not true. Joseph was not a prophet.

[Hagoth]

Has anyone prayed to know if he was a prophet?

Yes. Many times. Answers ranged from nothing to profound stupor of thought to solid no, but I kept putting it on the shelf and blaming myself for decades. Same with the Book of Mormon. Finally, in my 50 s, I quit my job to go back to school to study American archaeology full time. Long story short: the Book of Mormon is not true.

I agree, you should open a new topic to discuss this, Azrael. Please do.

[jfro18]

Yes. Many times. Answers ranged from nothing to profound stupor of thought to solid no, but I kept putting it on the shelf and blaming myself for decades. Same with the Book of Mormon. Finally, in my 50 s, I quit my job to go back to school to study American archaeology full time. Long story short: the Book of Mormon is not true.

And there it is. Feelings work when you tell yourself it has to be true because that's what your family raised you to think, but the moment you open yourself up to really learning about the church it all falls apart.

We've seen a number of apologists walk away over the Book of Abraham, archeology, Biblical scholarship, etc. Mormonism can not stand up to *any* of its truth claims across a wide spectrum of studies... it simply does not work.

[EternityIsNow]

Has anyone prayed to know if he was a prophet?

That is not how prayer works, sadly. The idea that you can pray to know truth was invented by the Wesley brothers, the founders of the Methodist movement. John and Charles Wesley. They decided, I believe in the 1750s, that warm feelings they felt in their chest meant the Holy Ghost was confirming their conversion decisions.

The idea of praying to know truth is called divination. It does not work in the real world. If you don't believe this, test prayer and feelings on a concrete fact that you do not know but can look up. Don't do this though if you cannot handle the shock.

Prayer to know truth, simply asking God to give you knowledge, and expecting a concrete communication, is not how the universe works. But it is a very clever religious gimmick because it interacts with human emotions. It is a trick. Don't be tricked.

Learning the truth is very very difficult. I believe God gave us science to assist us as we attempt to find more truth in the world. And there may be times where some people receive real communications. But if you test this scientifically, you will find that prayer to learn truth is not a mechanism that we humans can rely on. I wish it were that simple. If you want to test this, I can suggest some methods to use. I have never met anyone who can reliably use prayer and feelings to determine concrete truth.

[Hagoth]

Here was my experience of decades of praying for a testimony.

f I believed something wholeheartedly before I prayed about it I was more likely to get a good feeling or burning in the bosom, but so faint that I had to really strain to convince myself I was picking up a frequency. If I was pleading with God to help me find faith in something that was troubling me or giving me doubt -- in other words when I REALLY needed God to shore up my testimony about something -- I got crickets, or stupor, or bad feelings. When I came to peace with the idea that something about the church was not right and prayed for confirmation that my doubts had been valid I got good feelings/burning/elevation. In other words, when I doubted my doubts God didn't seem to help, when I trusted my doubts God seemed to be saying "atta boy!"

My conclusion: good-feeling answers to prayer happens entirely in our own heads, either to confirm to ourselves what we already believe, whether or not it's true. Or sometimes, as in my case of my non-faith-affirmative answers, to help us deal with things we suspect but haven't been able to process consciously. That doesn't mean there can't be a God or that there can't be some truth in the church. It just means, for me anyway, I have to go with the confirmation of intellectual investigation rather than the confirmation of warm tinglies.

[Azrael]

Has anyone prayed to know if he was a prophet?

That is not how prayer works, sadly. The idea that you can pray to know truth was invented by the Wesley brothers, the founders of the Methodist movement. John and Charles Wesley. They decided, I believe in the 1750s, that warm feelings they felt in their chest meant the Holy Ghost was confirming their conversion decisions.

The idea of praying to know truth is called divination. It does not work in the real world. If you don't believe this, test prayer and feelings on a concrete fact that you do not know but can look up. Don't do this though if you cannot handle the shock.

Prayer to know truth, simply asking God to give you knowledge, and expecting a concrete communication, is not how the universe works. But it is a very clever religious gimmick because it interacts with human emotions. It is a trick. Don't be tricked.

Learning the truth is very very difficult. I believe God gave us science to assist us as we attempt to find more truth in the world. And there may be times where some people receive real communications. But if you test this scientifically, you will find that prayer to learn truth is not a mechanism that we humans can rely on. I wish it were that simple. If you want to test this, I can suggest some methods to use. I have never met anyone who can reliably use prayer and feelings to determine concrete truth.

I’m sorry you’ve come to this conclusion. My experience has been amazing concerning the Holy Spirit and prayer.

[Hagoth]

I’m sorry you’ve come to this conclusion. My experience has been amazing concerning the Holy Spirit and prayer.

Good for you, Azrael. I certainly hope you understand that the experiences of others who are intensely sincere, and who have dedicated a lifetime of devotion to the church and to living its standards but who had a different outcome are just as valid. Most of the people I know who have lost their testimonies have put far more time and effort into getting real answers than the average believing member, and have at some point wanted those answers more than anything else in their lives. If you hang around long here long enough you will come to appreciate how sincere and knowledgeable these folks are.

I believe that we each have have to find our own path, and that we each have individual brain wiring and chemistry that makes it impossible for there to be a one-size-fits-all solution. Just as some people have different happiness baselines, different interests, motivations, etc, there are those whose brains respond well to different experiences and religious stimuli. Mormonism just seems to work for some people and make them happy. For others it is emotionally harmful. Those who can simply pray and get the "right" answer have no concept of the hours, weeks, months, years of dark-night-o'-the-soul that others have struggled with, only to be told they're just not doing it right or that they're not good enough, or they need to keep the shoulder to the wheel and not give up until they either get the right answer of die trying.

I have to retract my earlier statement about being able to get "good" answers about things that I already believed in. I nearly wore my knees out on my mission praying for a testimony of the Book of Mormon. I believed in the Book of Mormon but I felt like a hypocrite going out every day and promising people that if THEY read it God would tell them in no uncertain terms that it was true. Why wouldn't He do that for me? I was devoting my whole life to the church, and had been since I was a toddler and to being faithful and scrupulously obedient. I guess maybe deep down inside I might have had some doubts, so I couldn't get that answer? I dunno, you tell me.

[deacon blues]

Has anyone prayed to know if he was a prophet?

This question deserves its own thread.

I'm reminded of Abraham Lincoln's saying: You can fool some of the people all of the time, or all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. At least I thought Lincoln said it. Check out: http://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/12/11/cannot-fool/ ....or pray about it.

You get to decide.

[Azrael]

I’m sorry you’ve come to this conclusion. My experience has been amazing concerning the Holy Spirit and prayer.

Good for you, Azrael. I certainly hope you understand that the experiences of others who are intensely sincere, and who have dedicated a lifetime of devotion to the church and to living its standards but who had a different outcome are just as valid. Most of the people I know who have lost their testimonies have put far more time and effort into getting real answers than the average believing member, and have at some point wanted those answers more than anything else in their lives. If you hang around long here long enough you will come to appreciate how sincere and knowledgeable these folks are.

I haven’t sought to marginalize anyone’s efforts.

Scripture gives some promises concerning communing with the Holy Spirit, it gives instructions, and there are some warnings.

My experience after dedicating myself, that I had those promises fulfilled in my life.

We are all on our own path, whether your path is guided by the Mormon’s particular iron rod or not is up to you. Whether it was you or God himself deciding the LDS’s Priesthood is not for you, then it’s not for you!


I can’t imagine what possessed you to go on a mission before having a testimony of the BOM. It’s hard to imagine from my perspective. I think many LDS families are putting too much pressure on their children to go on missions.

[wtfluff]

I haven’t sought to marginalize anyone’s efforts.

And yet, in your same post, you step right into marginalizing someone's "efforts":

I can’t imagine what possessed you to go on a mission before having a testimony of the BOM. It’s hard to imagine from my perspective. I think many LDS families are putting too much pressure on their children to go on missions.

And from another thread, the underlined portion would be "marginalizing someone's efforts":

Are you expecting me to adopt your lack of faith or something? Abandon my birthright perhaps? Deny the Holy Ghost over your fickle opinion?

[Azrael]

You’re free to be the victim here in your mind.

Do all roads lead to victimhood?

[Azrael]

I’m not marginalizing you, is it possible I’m critiquing your admitted perception of failure?